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Minutes of 2010-02-24 teleconference

From: erik mannens <erik.mannens@ugent.be>
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:20:57 +0100
To: <public-media-fragment@w3.org>
Message-ID: <004601cab543$6ff6ec10$4fe4c430$@mannens@ugent.be>
Dear all,

 

 

The minutes of this week's telecon are available for review at
http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html (and in text below).
Thanks Davy for stepping in as Scribe.

 

 

Sincere greetings,

 

Erik Mannens

 

Project Manager

 

Gaston Crommenlaan 8 bus 201

B-9050 Ledeberg-Ghent, Belgium

 

T: +32 9 331 49 93

F: +32 9 331 48 96

M: +32 473 27 44 17

E: erik.mannens@ugent.be

W: http://www.mmlab.be/emannens

 

 

http://multimedialab.elis.ugent.be

 

--- 


Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference


24 Feb 2010


Agenda
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Feb/0072.html
> 

See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-irc> 


Attendees


Present

yves, michael, davy, erik, silvia

Regrets

raphael

Chair

erik

Scribe

erik, davy


Contents


*	Topics <http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#agenda>


1.	Admin <http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#item01> 
2.	3. <http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#item02>
SPECIFICATION:
3.	4. TEST <http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#item03>
CASES
4.	3.1 <http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#item04>
Media Fragment URI syntax

*	Summary
<http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#ActionSummary>  of
Action Items

  _____  

<trackbot> Date: 24 February 2010


Admin


<davy> scribenick: erik

Accept the minutes at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html

<davy> +1

+1

<silvia> +1

<Yves> +1

<davy> scribenick: davy

Erik: charter extension: everything fine, but milestones need to be adjusted

<scribe> ACTION: raphael to adjust the milestones in the charter [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - raphael

<raphael> ah, thanks :-)


3. SPECIFICATION:


<raphael> ACTION: troncy to adjust the milestones in the charter [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-145 - Adjust the milestones in the charter [on
RaphaŽl Troncy - due 2010-03-03].

<raphael> ... actually on the group front page since we cannot change the
charter, but the charter refers to the group home page for the changes

<erik> action-143?

<trackbot> ACTION-143 -- Silvia Pfeiffer to move 5.1.5 into a new section --
due 2010-02-24 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/143

<erik> action-144?

<trackbot> ACTION-144 -- Silvia Pfeiffer to move the section 5.1.1 to the
top -- due 2010-02-24 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/144

<silvia> not done yet

<silvia> neither that one

<silvia> I promised it for F2F

<erik> ok, actions still going on

erik: status about changes in the header syntax?

yves: made modifications in the wiki regarding philip's remarks
... only do it in the spec if we switch back to ABNF

jack: I'm fine with either ABNF or EBNF

yves: I have tools for ABNF only

jack: no reason why we switched to EBNF, I don't see an advantage to use
EBNF

<silvia> I don't mind either - if you prefer to switch back to ABNF, go for
it

<silvia> I think Philip found it easier to write, but that doesn't have to
influence everyone else

jack: if Yves prefers ABNF, then I also prefer ABNF

yves: will continue in ABNF
... also create a section where all the ABNF is located together
... having a single view of the grammar

erik: propose to use ABNF to represent the grammar

<jackjansen> PROPOSAL: dtddadada??? Ok, +1 :-)

<jackjansen> I know...

PROPOSAL: use ABNF to represent the grammar, because of the existence of
tools

<erik> +1

<mhausenblas> +1

+1

<jackjansen> +1

RESOLUTION: ABNF will be used to represent the grammar

yves: a-126 is still ongoing
... should be able to do it today

<silvia> while you're at it, can you look at writing ABNF for the HTTP
headers, too?

<Yves> yep

<Yves> that's the plan

erik: a-135 is still ongoing

jack: a-137 is also ongoing

<silvia> see note in 5.2.2 and 5.2.3

issue-5?

<trackbot> ISSUE-5 -- Handling spatial cropping requires information at
client-side -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/5

erik: we must asap reach LC
... if this is only with the temporal dimension, so be it

<jackjansen> silvia, can you re-raise in AOB?


4. TEST CASES


<mhausenblas> ACTION-118?

<trackbot> ACTION-118 -- Michael Hausenblas to come up with individual
'normal' test cases (+/- 20) -- due 2009-10-07 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/118

<raphael> I second silvia question, re: quotes in the syntax

<raphael> Silvia, please, write your comments not in /me

<silvia> re: ABNF - are we dropping the quotes on the fragment values?

<silvia> just FYI - the "s" in npt dimension has already been dropped in
spec

<jackjansen> silvia, we first continue with 4, then get to 3.5

michael: a-118 continues untill next week

<mhausenblas> ACTION-108?

<trackbot> ACTION-108 -- Michael Hausenblas to add the missing test cases in
corrib -- due 2009-11-16 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/108

<mhausenblas> close ACTION-108

<trackbot> ACTION-108 Add the missing test cases in corrib closed

<mhausenblas> http://ld2sd.deri.org/corrib/

<mhausenblas>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Feb/0019.html

michael: we can review them one by one

<silvia> indeed - I was going to ask if people had had the time to check out
those test cases for the time dimension

jack: are the test cases already in a state that we can see that all the
boundary cases can be seen

<silvia> can we focus on time dimension for now and check there that we have
all the boundary cases?

<erik> michael: focus is on temporal dimension only

michael: not totally sure, there might be at least a couple of test cases
that are not yet covered

jack: I will look at it

<silvia> in my list I abstracted away from concrete values into t=a,b

<silvia> then I looked at the values that a and b can take compared to each
other and compared to start, end of file

<silvia> in this way, I tried capturing all the possibilities

<silvia> these are all no errors:

<silvia> * Non-errors: b>=a

<silvia> t=a,b -> 200: set playback to a-b

<silvia> t=a, -> 200: set playback to a-end

<silvia> t=,b -> 200: set playback to start-b

<silvia> t=a,b with a=b -> 200: set playback to a

<silvia> t=a,b with a<start -> 200: set playback to start-b

<silvia> t=a,b with a>end -> 200: set playback to end

<silvia> t=a,b with b>end -> 200: set playback to a-end

<silvia> t=a,b with b<start -> 200: set playback to start

michael: in the F2F, we should make a final decision regarding the test
cases of temporal fragments

jack: I missed b > end

<mhausenblas> Michael: will add t=a,b with b>end and t=a,b with b<start

jack: also miss b<a

<jackjansen> silvia, both

<silvia> it's in the list above

<mhausenblas> we're looking at corrib ATM, but jackjansen referred to in
general

<silvia> b>end is, the other is in an error list

<silvia> * non-existent

<silvia> example: t=b,a with b>a (e.g. t=20,10)

<silvia> -> 200: ignore fragment

michael: it's easy to add/edit test cases in corrib
... everyone can do it

<silvia> and I also have this one that we haven't had before:

<silvia> * Validity errors: value cannot be parsed for dimension

<silvia> example: t=asdf

<silvia> -> 200: ignore fragment (retrieve full resource, but with this
adapted URL)

<silvia> note: browsers already do this

<silvia> further, I think we need to change TC0002

<silvia> * TC0002: empty time segment - npt (see also above)

<silvia> examples: t=0,0 ; t=3,3

<silvia> -> 200: retrieve whatever the browser needs to set up playback and

<silvia> set the playback position to the offset

<silvia> NOTE: this is different to what we currently have at

<silvia> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCases

<mhausenblas> silivia, you're aware of that you can edit TC in corrib
yourself?

<scribe> ACTION: Jack to identify and add in corrib any missing test cases
for temporal fragments [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-146 - Identify and add in corrib any missing test
cases for temporal fragments [on Jack Jansen - due 2010-03-03].

<silvia> I thought we are discussing here whether we agree on those test
cases and their results

<silvia> the reason for my questions / list was that I wanted these in the
spec as well as in corrib, so developers can refer to it

<mhausenblas> silvia, I'll change the ownership re TC10-17 to you soon

<erik> michael: 'contributor' = 'one who raised the TC'

<silvia> hmm, according to
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCases they are multi
dimensional - wasn't really focused on that yet

<mhausenblas> ACTION: mhausenb to add all MF WG members to corrib [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-147 - Add all MF WG members to corrib [on Michael
Hausenblas - due 2010-03-03].

<mhausenblas> ACTION: mhausenb to add a copy TC functionality [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-148 - Add a copy TC functionality [on Michael
Hausenblas - due 2010-03-03].

<mhausenblas> ACTION: mhausenb to come up with a fix for overview vs. edit
single TC [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-149 - Come up with a fix for overview vs. edit
single TC [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2010-03-03].

jack: if we change the syntax, then someone needs to be responsible to
modify the related test cases

<mhausenblas> Michael: there is also an issue tracker for corrib in case you
find a bug or want to request a feature

<mhausenblas> ... http://bitbucket.org/mhausenblas/corrib/issues/?status=new
<http://bitbucket.org/mhausenblas/corrib/issues/?status=new&status=open>
&status=open


3.1 Media Fragment URI syntax


erik: do we keep the quotes around track names and ids?

<Yves> p

<erik> also see:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ublic-media-fragment/2010Feb/0071.html

jack: percent escapes of ? and & seems to work in the browser
... which indicates that we do need quotes (on condition that we have
percent escaping)

<erik> ... reinvestigation is still needed!

<silvia> which philip introduced into the spec

<silvia> oh!

<erik> jack: syntax of ? and # should be the same

jack: we should first investigate how percent encoding works

<erik> jack: what about client vs serverside ... should be the same at both
sides

<mhausenblas> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-2.1

<mhausenblas> and http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-2.4

yves: before doing percent-encoding, the url is split up

<jackjansen> If I compare section 2.1 to what I posted to the mailing list
then it seems the behaviousr I saw is wrong.

<erik> yves: URI-syntax is not clear on what should be returned on client or
server .... therefore no ambiguity if we use quotes

<jackjansen> 2.4 states that even more clearly

<silvia> according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent-encoding, last
section, only the names and values of a CGI query are encoded

yves: quotes remove ambiguity

jack: so youtube is not compliant to RFC3986?

<jackjansen> This works:
http://www.youtube.com/watch%3fv=FwJduPtCvSM%26feature=rec-r2-2r-1-HM

<jackjansen> and it shouldn't

<mhausenblas> my friend re URIs is
http://www.websitedev.de/temp/rfc3986-check.html.gz

<jackjansen> So, it seems that rfc3986 isn't followed by at least one major
site

<mhausenblas> lets you check stuff quite nicely

<silvia> I think the "Under normal circumstances" part is important

<jackjansen> ref?

<silvia> I think in essence rfc3986 lets every server do what it wants

<jackjansen> got it

<silvia> link above - http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-2.4

<silvia> but it suggests parsing before percent encoding

<silvia> to make it easier for the server to determine the components

<silvia> doesn't stop a server from trying to interpret a url that has more
than just the components url encoded

<silvia> I think we can safely prescribe url encoding the way Philip has
currently done it and it follows section 2.4

<jackjansen> I am not sure I agree. I am not convinced that we can remove
the quotes for queries.

<silvia> that is a different matter altoghether, I think

<silvia> what problem do the quotes solve?

<jackjansen> escaping ampersands

<jackjansen> eric??

<silvia> I seem to remember having had a problem where the quotes introduced
more confusion than helped, but cannot now find it

<silvia> anyway, I guess we're out of time :)

<scribe> ACTION: Erik to summarize the discussion on the quotes in a mail or
on the wiki [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-150 - Summarize the discussion on the quotes in a
mail or on the wiki [on Erik Mannens - due 2010-03-03].

[adjourned]

<jackjansen> bye!

<silvia> thanks everyone!

<silvia> btw: we're only talking about quotes for track and id dimensions,
right?

yup

<silvia> davy: is your implementation using quotes?

yes


Summary of Action Items


[NEW] ACTION: Erik to summarize the discussion on the quotes in a mail or on
the wiki [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: Jack to identify and add in corrib any missing test cases for
temporal fragments [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: mhausenb to add a copy TC functionality [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: mhausenb to add all MF WG members to corrib [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: mhausenb to come up with a fix for overview vs. edit single TC
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: raphael to adjust the milestones in the charter [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: troncy to adjust the milestones in the charter [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02]
 
[End of minutes]

  _____  

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl
<http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm>  version
1.135 (CVS log <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/> )
$Date: 2010/02/24 11:14:30 $ 
  _____  


Scribe.perl diagnostic output


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Found Date: 24 Feb 2010
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