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minutes of 2010-02-17 teleconference

From: RaphaŽl Troncy <raphael.troncy@cwi.nl>
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:28:48 +0100
Message-ID: <4B7BFD20.4020507@cwi.nl>
To: Media Fragment <public-media-fragment@w3.org>
Dear all,

[with the good URI and subject header!]

The minutes of this week's telecon are available for review at
http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html (and in text format
below). Thanks Conrad for having scribed (added to the ScribeList).
Cheers.

   RaphaŽl

------------
    [1]W3C
       [1] http://www.w3.org/
              Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference
17 Feb 2010
    [2]Agenda
       [2] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Feb/0037.html
    See also: [3]IRC log
       [3] http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-irc
Attendees
    Present
           Jack, Yves, Raphael, Silvia, Michael, Conrad, Erik
    Regrets
           Davy
    Chair
           Erik, Raphael
    Scribe
           Conrad, Raphael
Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]1. ADmin
          2. [6]2. F2F Agenda
          3. [7]3. SPECIFICATION
          4. [8]4. Test Cases
          5. [9]5. AOB
      * [10]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 17 February 2010

    Silvia, are you planning to join?

    <mhausenblas> ACTION-140?

    <trackbot> ACTION-140 -- Michael Hausenblas to create a more
    readable version of the TC classification at
    [11]http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/mftc -- due
    2010-02-17 -- OPEN

      [11] http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/mftc

    <trackbot>
    [12]http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/140

      [12] http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/140

    <mhausenblas> [13]http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/

      [13] http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/

    <mhausenblas>
    [14]http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2F
    www.w3.org%2F2008%2FWebVideo%2FFragments%2FTC%2Fmftc2html.xslt&xmlfi
    le=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2008%2FWebVideo%2FFragments%2FTC%2Fmftc
    .rdf&content-type=&submit=transform

      [14] 
http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2008%2FWebVideo%2FFragments%2FTC%2Fmftc2html.xslt&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2008%2FWebVideo%2FFragments%2FTC%2Fmftc.rdf&content-type=&submit=transform

1. ADmin

    Accept the minutes at
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-mediafrag-minutes.html

      [15] http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-mediafrag-minutes.html

    <mhausenblas> +1

    +1

    <jackjansen> +1

2. F2F Agenda

    F2F Meeting

    [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/FithF2FAgenda

      [16] http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/FithF2FAgenda

    <conrad> raphael: the agenda is open for suggestions

3. SPECIFICATION

    <conrad> * ACTION-134: Erik to mark up the spec with normative and
    informative classes [postpone?]

    <conrad> * ACTION-139: Silvia to mark up specified sections as
    implementable

    <conrad> raphael: silvia is not here but she has done 138 and 138
    (?)

    <conrad> close action-138

    <trackbot> ACTION-138 Include Erik's diagrams into specification
    closed

    <conrad> close action-139

    <trackbot> ACTION-139 Mark up specified sections as implementable
    closed

    Current document:
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spe
    c/

      [17] 
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/

    <conrad> raphael: regarding section 5.1.3

    <Yves>
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spe
    c/#processing-name-value-lists

      [18] 
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#processing-name-value-lists

    <conrad> raphael: silvia thinks we should also mark it as
    implementable

    <conrad> raphael: the only thing refraining her from that atm is an
    objection from jack

    <conrad> raphael: jack notes that we have not yet concluded if an
    unspecified dimension should be a zero or not

    <conrad> raphael: we need to decide how strict/lax we need to be
    with interpretations of the spec

    <Yves> what happens with
    [19]http://www.example.com/foo.m4a#t=12-20&this_is_not_a_mediafrag
    will return a valid mediafrag using 5.1.3

      [19] http://www.example.com/foo.m4a#t=12-20&this_is_not_a_mediafrag

    <conrad> jack: i still think that being relaxed is fine, but if
    something is over-specified, such as specifying two time prefixes or
    two spatial prefixes, there would be too much scope for error

    <conrad> jack: for every cascading rule you can find a use case,
    where one overrides or extends the other

    <conrad> jack: i don't feel confident about stating that one rule
    can handle 90% of cases

    <conrad> jack: if there is no clear rule, eg. saying
    t=100,200&t=20,40, then how should that be interpreted? there are 3
    obvious possible interpretations, and each has people backing it

    <conrad> jack: i'm perfectly happy with name=value pairs we don't
    understand, that is up to implementations

    <conrad> jack: if there is a name=value pair that we do understand,
    we should be stricter about that

    <conrad> yves: this is test 3e (?) -- we should be clear about
    handling of things that are not recognized, partial media fragments
    etc.

    <conrad> yves: a validator should provide errors

    <conrad> jack: i agree

    <conrad> raphael; for a good combination of things that we can
    recognize, jack is saying that we shouldn't try to understand what
    they are doing, but specify a rule

    <Yves> things that can be recovered could be close strings, like
    xyhw -> xywh (obvious typo)

    <conrad> jack: yes, according to our spec it should throw an error

    <conrad> jack: just like we cannot accept id and t combined should
    give the same result as two t's combined

    <jackjansen> My pref would by: replace all "Any previously set value
    is discarded" with "it is an error if a value was previously set"

    <conrad> silvia: we need to resolve how these ambiguous cases and
    combined parameters are handled

    <conrad> silvia: i think what jack in particular objected to was
    philip's suggestion that any previous key=value settings are
    discarded on error

    <erik> rssagent, draft minutes

    <Yves> +1 to error instead of discarding

    <conrad> jack: i would suggest that instead of discarding newly set
    disallowed values, an error should be thrown

    <conrad> jack: from a (parser/UA) implementors point of view, simply
    discarding seems simpler, but a content author may expect cascading

    <Yves> I can think of an intersection of t #t=10,20&t=6,12&intersect

    <Yves> not a mediafrag => mediafrag recognition fails

    <conrad> jack: i cannot see of a clear rule that prefers discarding
    or cascading, so we should just specify an error

    Jack: we cannot find a general way for cascading rules, so throw an
    error

    <Yves> (defined in another spec, for example)

    <conrad> silvia: i agree -- discarding would just encourage lazy
    programming

    <conrad> yves: if there is no specification for an intersection, no
    problem, but in our case if we don't flag an error then we have to
    specify it as a valid media fragment

    <conrad> yves: i agree that it should be an error

    <conrad> conrad: what is an error

    <conrad> raphael: it is not a media fragment

    <conrad> silvia: it must be simply discarded and the fragment cannot
    be resolved as a media fragment

    <conrad> silvia: [analogy to html page]

    <jackjansen> We seem to have moved to 5.1.5

    <conrad> raphael: but in the case of an HTML UA, everything is
    happening within the UA, not on the network

    <conrad> silvia: i think it is the same for both html and media
    resources

    <jackjansen> (and I think that that editorial that is attributed to
    Michael is actually mine:-)

    <conrad> silvia: case 1) for html if the # cannot be resolved, the
    full resource is displayed

    yes Jack, but you defer it to Michael a long time ago :-)

    <conrad> silvia: for media, if the # cannot be understood, the whole
    resource is shown from the beginning

    <jackjansen> good:-)

    <conrad> silvia: case 2) if the resource has previously been loaded:
    same behaviour, HTML goes to top of page, media should go to the
    beginning

    <conrad> raphael: perhaps we should merge section 5.1.3, 5.1.5 on
    these topics

    <conrad> jack: for error handling, i think we should make sure that
    put this in informative text not normative text

    <conrad> jack: because the best case for handling an error is up to
    the application

    <Yves> also authoring tools should report errors

    <conrad> jack: in the case of eg. pay-per-view content the UA may
    offer to interfere and confirm with the user

    <conrad> silvia: i agree

    Raphael: there is the proposal of making 5.1.5 into a full section 6

    <conrad> silvia: michael, did you get a chance to review the list of
    error cases presented last week

    <mhausenblas> Michael: I agree

    <jackjansen> silvia, url?

    <mhausenblas> silence == agreement ;)

    <conrad> silvia: 5.1.5: we need to look at errors in each of the
    dimensions (time, track, id)

    <conrad> silvia: and then if we look at combined dimensions then we
    need more cases

    <conrad> silvia: hence i'm suggesting to make it into a full section

    <scribe> ACTION: Conrad to add a paragraph in the section 5.2.1 that
    further clarify the role of the UA for rendering a media fragment
    [recorded in
    [20]http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-141 - Add a paragraph in the section 5.2.1
    that further clarify the role of the UA for rendering a media
    fragment [on Conrad Parker - due 2010-02-24].

    <mhausenblas> hey!

    <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to note re appendix

    <conrad> michael: i would prefer to have the POV of an implementer
    that needs/wants to run the test cases

    <conrad> michael: from implementer's pov it should be as easy as
    possible to do their [verification?] work

    <scribe> scribenick: Raphael

    <scribe> scribenick: raphael

    <jackjansen> +1

    Suggestion: replace all "Any previously set value is discarded" with
    "it is an error if a value was previously set" in 5.1.3 and remove
    editorial note of Jack

    <silvia> +1

    <mhausenblas> s/Suggegstion/Proposal:

    +1

    <Yves> +1

    <mhausenblas> +1

    <conrad> +1

    RESOLUTION: replace all "Any previously set value is discarded" with
    "it is an error if a value was previously set" in 5.1.3 and remove
    editorial note of Jack

    <scribe> ACTION: Troncy to apply this change in the section 5.1.3
    (jack's note) [recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-142 - Apply this change in the section
    5.1.3 (jack's note) [on RaphaŽl Troncy - due 2010-02-24].

    Raphael: Providing this change, can we mark this section as
    implementable?

    Jack: adding one more note about id?

    Silvia: I would just say that everything concerning the time
    dimension is implementable, the rest is still under discussion

    Jack: I would not move 5.1.5 in an Appendix

    Silvia: I would move a section 6 and see later if we move it in an
    appendix depending the length of the document

    <scribe> ACTION: Silvia to move 5.1.5 into a new section [recorded
    in [22]http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-143 - Move 5.1.5 into a new section [on
    Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2010-02-24].

    Raphael: Section 5.1.1 is related to ISSUE-13

    ISSUE-13?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-13 -- Write a IETF draft for proposing how to
    register the fragment scheme for all media types -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/13

      [23] http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/13

    Silvia: move this section to the top after the introduction

    <scribe> ACTION: Silvia to move the section 5.1.1 to the top
    [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-144 - Move the section 5.1.1 to the top
    [on Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2010-02-24].

    Raphael: Section 5.1.4, general interpretation of media fragments,
    we have so far a HTML5 browser type of UA in mind
    ... What are the other UA we are talking about?

    Silvia: I'm not sure if we should say that all browsers should
    render the same way

    ACTION-141?

    <trackbot> ACTION-141 -- Conrad Parker to add a paragraph in the
    section 5.2.1 that further clarify the role of the UA for rendering
    a media fragment -- due 2010-02-24 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/141

      [25] http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/141

    Silvia: perhaps start this discussion within the HTML5 fora

    <conrad> a non-browser UA could be a video editor as a consumer of
    media fragments

    Jack: maybe we should turn the rendering into a new section as well

    Silvia: I like that too

    Jack: so we have sections about Syntax, Formal processing and then
    Guidelines and Errors

    Silvia: how far we should go in terms of saying something about
    rendering of a media fragment is still a matter of discussion

    Raphael: other UA ... video editor, qt player, youtube/dailymotion
    iPhone app, etc.

    Silvia: I will start this dicussion thread within the Accessibility
    task Force of the HTML5 WG

    <jackjansen> but also think non-rendering apps (metadata annotation)

    Silvia: there are developers there that will udnerstand what we are
    talking about

    Raphael: I'm uncomfortable with the fact that sections 3, 4.1 and
    5.1.1 are marked as non-normative
    ... could we just comment that?

    Silvia: I tend to ignore that, I rather looked at implementable or
    not

4. Test Cases

    ACTON-140?

    ACTION-140?

    <trackbot> ACTION-140 -- Michael Hausenblas to create a more
    readable version of the TC classification at
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/mftc -- due
    2010-02-17 -- OPEN

      [26] http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/mftc

    <trackbot>
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/140

      [27] http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/140

    [28]http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2F
    www.w3.org%2F2008%2FWebVideo%2FFragments%2FTC%2Fmftc2html.xslt&xmlfi
    le=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2008%2FWebVideo%2FFragments%2FTC%2Fmftc
    .rdf&content-type=&submit=transform

      [28] 
http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2008%2FWebVideo%2FFragments%2FTC%2Fmftc2html.xslt&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2008%2FWebVideo%2FFragments%2FTC%2Fmftc.rdf&content-type=&submit=transform

    <mhausenblas> [29]http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/

      [29] http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/

    Michael: just simple table layout
    ... do you have any suggestions?

    close ACTION-140

    <trackbot> ACTION-140 Create a more readable version of the TC
    classification at
    [30]http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/mftc closed

      [30] http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/mftc

5. AOB

    Silvia: I have mentionned a list of errors for the time dimension
    ... I would appreciate if we could include that into the TC
    ... and add them in the Section 6
    ... it would be good if could agree on that

    Michael: I will add these TC in the good place (my action-118) by
    next week

    Raphael: ok, so we discuss that next week

    [adjourned]

    <mhausenblas> FYI: I've now updated
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCasesOverview

      [31] http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCasesOverview

    <mhausenblas> so that there is a direct link to the MFTC
    categorisation and tabular rendering

    <mhausenblas> cya

    <mhausenblas>

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Conrad to add a paragraph in the section 5.2.1 that
    further clarify the role of the UA for rendering a media fragment
    [recorded in
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: Silvia to move 5.1.5 into a new section [recorded in
    [33]http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: Silvia to move the section 5.1.1 to the top [recorded
    in [34]http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: Troncy to apply this change in the section 5.1.3
    (jack's note) [recorded in
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02]

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________

-- 
RaphaŽl Troncy
EURECOM, Multimedia Communications Department
2229, route des CrÍtes, 06560 Sophia Antipolis, France.
e-mail: raphael.troncy@eurecom.fr & raphael.troncy@gmail.com
Tel: +33 (0)4 - 9300 8242
Fax: +33 (0)4 - 9000 8200
Web: http://www.eurecom.fr/~troncy/
Received on Wednesday, 17 February 2010 14:29:51 GMT

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