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Publishing the Mapping Table (was minutes of 2009-03-10 teleconference)

From: Thierry Michel <tmichel@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 14:13:09 +0100
Message-ID: <49B7B8E5.5040402@w3.org>
To: Felix Sasaki <felix.sasaki@fh-potsdam.de>
CC: "public-media-annotation@w3.org" <public-media-annotation@w3.org>
Felix,

I have checked today with Ian from the W3C comm team, and I was told we 
can proceed with a publication of our mapping table as is on TR page. 
Having such a large table would not raise a publication issue.

It will only need to be included into a draft with proper headings.
Therefore the document you have proposed would definitively satisfy the 
publication rules.
http://dev.w3.org/2008/video/mediaann/mediaont-1.0/mediaont-1.0.html

Two issues remain;

The first one was raised by Raphael yesterday during the call. The Group 
currently has not agreed to this table, and this is why people were 
asking to review/discuss it and agree to it during the next F2F in 
april, before its publication. Maybe Raphael and other should voice here.


The second issue is regarding our Charter:
http://www.w3.org/2008/01/media-annotations-wg.html

Which mentions the following deliverables

     * A W3C Working Group Note for use cases and requirements for the 
Media Ontology
     * A W3C Recommendation describing a simple ontology for 
representating a set of concepts often associated with media objects.
     * A W3C Recommendation for an application programming interface 
(API) to access metadata information.
     * A W3C Working Group Note for mapping the ontology to existing 
standards and solutions.

Isn't that mapping table closer the the last deliverable, W3C Working 
Group Note?

Thierry.




Felix Sasaki wrote:
> Sorry for not being on the call. About the discussion "publishing or 
> not": first, Joakim said last week
> 
> "Joakim: will try to make a more publishable version of the mapping 
> table, this could be a good starting point for this ontology design 
> guideline"
> 
> so I expect that we will have a version soon that can pass the 
> publication rules. Second, I had fulfiled an action item to create a 
> template for publishing the ontology, see the result at
> http://dev.w3.org/2008/video/mediaann/mediaont-1.0/mediaont-1.0.html
> and the link where to put the mapping table at
> http://dev.w3.org/2008/video/mediaann/mediaont-1.0/mediaont-1.0.html#mapping-table
> have you discussed this boiler template during the call? If not, why?
> 
> third, and most important, 17 March I proposed
> "Felix: We should write a mail to the list that we plan to publish the 
> table around the 17th of March (or as soon as possible)
> ... and whether people agree."
> and Joakim wrote the mail
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2009Feb/0082.html
> 
> Why did the people who have concerns about the publication not reply to 
> this mail? There was only a clarification question from Wonsuk.
> 
> I see no new information for delaying the publication of the first draft 
> of the ontology later than March 17th. The concerns from Thierry
> "Thierry: it will be difficult to publish this table in the TR space 
> because of pubrules"
> will be resolved by Joakim and the boiler template, see above. The 
> proposal from Raphapel
> "Raphael: and explain carefully the rationale of each mapping, the type 
> of the mapping (equivalent, sub-property, related to, unspecified), the 
> transitivity"
> is not new, and we had voted for publishing the table via Joakims 
> 0082.html *without* these relations.
> 
> So given the fact that we had no disagreement on the publication date 
> for more than three weeks, I would like to move ahead and publish as 
> soon as Joakim has the content of
> http://dev.w3.org/2008/video/mediaann/mediaont-1.0/mediaont-1.0.html#mapping-table
> prepared. As with the requirements & use case document, I am very happy 
> to add warnings of issue to be resolved, such as classifing mappings.
> 
> If people do not agree with this proposal, I would like to hear an 
> alternative publication schedule, including people taking the necessary 
> actions with deadlines:
> - explain rationale of each mappings
> - produce a document that contains excerpts of the table and graphical 
> representation of the mappings
> - split the table in plenty of tables with always XMP as reference
> 
> The above are *potential actions*, I cannot read from the minutes what 
> actions the WG really wants to take.
> 
> Felix
> 
> 2009/3/10 RaphaŽl Troncy <Raphael.Troncy@cwi.nl 
> <mailto:Raphael.Troncy@cwi.nl>>
> 
>     All,
> 
>     The minutes of today's telecon is available for review at:
>     http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-mediaann-minutes.html (and in text
>     format below).
>     Cheers.
> 
>      RaphaŽl
> 
>     ---------
>       [1]W3C
> 
>          [1] http://www.w3.org/
> 
>                                   - DRAFT -
> 
>                Media Annotations Working Group Teleconference
> 
>     10 Mar 2009
> 
>       [2]Agenda
> 
>          [2]
>     http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2009Mar/0023.html
> 
>       See also: [3]IRC log
> 
>          [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-mediaann-irc
> 
>     Attendees
> 
>       Present
>              Jean_Pierre, Thierry, Pierre_Antoine, Chris, Raphael,
>              Daniel_(irc), Veronique_(irc), wonsuk, (partial)
> 
>       Regrets
>              Tobias, michele
> 
>       Chair
>              Joakim
> 
>       Scribe
>              Thierry, raphael
> 
>     Contents
> 
>         * [4]Topics
>             1. [5]Agenda review and approval of previous minutes telecon
>                03 March 2009
>             2. [6]Action Items
>             3. [7]mapping of formats
>             4. [8]toy implementation
>             5. [9]AOB
>         * [10]Summary of Action Items
>         _________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
>       <tmichel> Scribe:Thierry
> 
>       <tmichel> Minutes:
>       [11]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/03-mediaann-minutes.html
> 
>         [11] http://www.w3.org/2009/03/03-mediaann-minutes.html
> 
>       <tmichel> hello raphael
> 
>       trackbot, start teleco
> 
>       <trackbot> Sorry, raphael, I don't understand 'trackbot, start
>       teleco'. Please refer to [12]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc
>       for help
> 
>         [12] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc
> 
>       trackbot, start telecon
> 
>       <trackbot> Date: 10 March 2009
> 
>       <scribe> Agenda:
>       [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2009
>       Mar/0023.html
> 
>         [13]
>     http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2009Mar/0023.html
> 
>       <daniel> this call starts ?
> 
>       <tmichel> hope Joakim will join to chair this meeting
> 
>       <Chris_IBBT> hopefully Joakim did not forget the different starting
>       time of the phone conference
> 
>       <daniel> oh, call information sent from Joakim has the same timezone
>       (not applying one-hour earlier). I am now traveling, hence can't
>       make a phone call.
> 
>       <tmichel> It maybe that some people have forgotten about the time
>       slot change for this call
> 
>       <tmichel> Should we proceed ? Do we have a quorum ?
> 
>       chairs, tema contact: what's happened with this call?
> 
>       <daniel> presumably, we will start after one-hour with Joamik
>       charing. sorry for inconvenience and thanks your patient...
> 
>       <tmichel> Joakim sent an agenda and was schedulled to Chair. I was
>       scheduled to scribe ...
> 
>       The agenda said: Tuesday, 10 March 13:00-14:00 UTC
> 
>       <Chris_IBBT> we do it in french?
> 
>       veronique, the telecon was messy, restart again
> 
>       <daniel> so sorry...this is a chairs' mistake. if ok, we will be
>       able to resume this call after 50 minutes. is that ok for all of you
>       ?
> 
>       daniel, we cannot, since Zakim is not booked!
> 
>       <daniel> um...ok, Thierry can you be charing this call instead of
>       Joakim ?
> 
>       <tmichel> do we want to cancel
> 
>     Agenda review and approval of previous minutes telecon 03 March 2009
> 
>       minutes accepted, no objections
> 
>       <tmichel> Propose to accept:
>       [14]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/03-mediaann-minutes.html as
> 
>         [14] http://www.w3.org/2009/03/03-mediaann-minutes.html
> 
>       <tmichel> minutes of the last meeting, thanks to Veronique for
>       scribing.
> 
>       <scribe> Scribe: raphael
> 
>       <pchampin> I can scribe
> 
>       <scribe> scribenick: raphael
> 
>       Scribe for next week: Thierry volunteers
> 
>     Action Items
> 
>       Felix: ACTION-43: continue
> 
>       All actions: 47, 54, 80, 82 continue
> 
>       Pierre Antoine: ACTION-83
> 
>       scribe: the action is not completed
>       ... I thought that the review of the standards will be done in small
>       group and thus the action would have been cancelled
> 
>       close ACTION-83
> 
>       <trackbot> ACTION-83 Review ID3 closed
> 
>       The remaining actions: 85, 86, 87 are still pending
> 
>     mapping of formats
> 
>       Thierry: how will we going to publish this table in our new
>       document?
> 
>       Raphael: is there any action to actually review this table?
> 
>       Thierry: no, we will make small group of 2-3 people for reviewing
>       part of this table
>       ... should we design groups and assign formats to these groups ?
> 
>       Veronique: I thought we will discuss that during the face to face
>       meeting
> 
>       Raphael: +1 for Veronique's suggestion
> 
>       Thierry: yes, but we should as well have some material prior to the
>       f2f
> 
>       <daniel> this small group will be made by toy implementation
>       volunteers and chairs...so toss it (reviewing the mapping table) to
>       chairs this time
> 
>       Jean Pierre: we need experts of these formats to actually do the
>       mapping, I will not dare to say something on formats I don't know
> 
>       Thierry: should we ask people to attach their name on specific
>       format?
> 
>       Jean Pierre: yes
> 
>       <pchampin> +1
> 
>       <Chris_IBBT> +1
> 
>       Thierry: and then use a first come first serve principle
> 
>       Jean Pierre: the maker of the mapping for each specific format
>       should be in
> 
>       <veroniqueM> +1
> 
>       <scribe> ACTION: Thierry to provide the list of all formats
>       considered in the mapping table with the person who did the mapping,
>       leading each sub-group [recorded in
>       [15]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-mediaann-minutes.html#action01]
> 
>       <trackbot> Created ACTION-89 - Provide the list of all formats
>       considered in the mapping table with the person who did the mapping,
>       leading each sub-group [on Thierry Michel - due 2009-03-17].
> 
>       <scribe> ACTION: ALL to join these sub-groups [recorded in
>       [16]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-mediaann-minutes.html#action02]
> 
>       <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ALL
> 
>       Raphael: why do you want to publish this table before the f2f?
> 
>       Veronique: in order to get comments from a wider community
> 
>       Thierry: it will be difficult to publish this table in the TR space
>       because of pubrules
> 
>       Raphael: my suggestion would be to produce a document that contains
>       excerpts of the table and graphical representation of the mappings
>       ... but requires a lot of work, not sure you can make it in 2 weeks
> 
>       Veronique: graphical representation might be unreadable
> 
>       Raphael: yes, thus split this table depending on group of properties
> 
>       Veronique: we want a validation of these mappings from the communiy
>       depending on the usage of the properties
> 
>       Raphael: then you need a lot of text explaining the rational behind
>       each mappings
> 
>       Pierre Antoine: the current table has XMP as a pivot format
> 
>       scribe: split the table in plenty of tables with always XMP as
>       reference
> 
>       Raphael: problem with that is that you remove a lot of value of the
>       global view of the table
> 
>       Thierry: but assuming we do not publish anything by the f2f, what
>       can we expect afterwards
> 
>       Veronique: the transitivity of the mappings is also in question, we
>       need to discuss it during the f2f
> 
>       <Chris_IBBT> +1 Veronique
> 
>       +1 veronique
> 
>       Thierry: what I hear here, is that we should wait for after the f2f
>       to go publishing a document
> 
>       <veroniqueM> +1
> 
>       +1
> 
>       Raphael: and explain carefully the rationale of each mapping, the
>       type of the mapping (equivalent, sub-property, related to,
>       unspecified), the transitivity
> 
>       Thierry: do we have a quorum for taking a resolution
> 
>       Raphael: i think we are not enough, can make an informal poll
> 
>       Chris: we should listen to the arguments of Felix that wanted to
>       publish the table asap
> 
>       Thierry: ok, this is not a formal resolution (no quorum), but I note
>       that the people present on the call want to delay the publication of
>       the table
> 
>       Toppic: survey of mapping formats
> 
>       <tmichel>
>       [17]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/42786/Annot-format-survey/results
> 
>         [17] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/42786/Annot-format-survey/results
> 
>       12 responders on 26 people!
> 
>       Thierry: commenting the results received so far, see also
>       [18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2009
>       Mar/0030.html
> 
>         [18]
>     http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2009Mar/0030.html
> 
>       Raphael: I would like to raise a serious concern! I see only 12
>       responders on 26, among the non-responders, there are active
>       participants ! I observe also that Dave Singer (from Apple) has
>       raised concern on the poll itself and did not provide answers :-(
> 
>       Chris: i can ask other IBBT guys to answer as well
> 
>       Veronique: I have no real preferences
> 
>       Thierry: I'm a team contact, so I cannot answer
> 
>       Daniel: why did you do not answer?
> 
>       Others: seem to not be active participants
> 
>       <scribe> ACTION: Thierry to re-open the questionnaire and invite
>       people to really respond even if they have no preferences, in order
>       to get a quorum of responses [recorded in
>       [19]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-mediaann-minutes.html#action03]
> 
>       <trackbot> Created ACTION-90 - Re-open the questionnaire and invite
>       people to really respond even if they have no preferences, in order
>       to get a quorum of responses [on Thierry Michel - due 2009-03-17].
> 
>       <scribe> ACTION: Thierry to chase the non-responders [recorded in
>       [20]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-mediaann-minutes.html#action04]
> 
>       <trackbot> Created ACTION-91 - Chase the non-responders [on Thierry
>       Michel - due 2009-03-17].
> 
>       <daniel> sorry..! I missed the due in flight...
> 
>       <daniel> Thierry, do we make a decision to reopen for that once
>       again ?
> 
>     toy implementation
> 
>       Veronique: is there a schema of XMP available or should we construct
>       it manually from the spec?
>       ... should we consider the VRA mapping in the toy implementation
>       given that VRA has low results in the pol
> 
>       Wonsuk: we can ask the schema to Adobe
> 
>       Raphael: I think it does *NOT* exist
> 
>       [21]http://support.adobe.com/devsup/devsup.nsf/docs/51668.htm
> 
>         [21] http://support.adobe.com/devsup/devsup.nsf/docs/51668.htm
> 
>       Raphael: we can of course ask confirmation from Adobe, a chair
>       action?
>       ... from the blog post above, it seems Adobe considers XMP as a
>       framework, in which particular subsets are defined, DC, and other
>       small schemas, but XMP is extensible too, thus no XMP schema exists
>       ... this is how I interpret it
> 
>       <daniel> I was asking Adobe for some of XMP issues as well as
>       Metadata WG, but no clear answer to me until now...
> 
>       <scribe> ACTION: Joakim to ask Larry Masinter or other Adobe's
>       contact in order to know if there is an XMP schema we can have
>       access too [recorded in
>       [22]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-mediaann-minutes.html#action05]
> 
>       <trackbot> Created ACTION-92 - Ask Larry Masinter or other Adobe's
>       contact in order to know if there is an XMP schema we can have
>       access too [on Joakim SŲderberg - due 2009-03-17].
> 
>     AOB
> 
>       Thierry: next call will be an hour earlier again!!!
> 
>       Chairs: need to write that in the agenda
> 
>       <daniel> again, sorry
> 
>     Summary of Action Items
> 
>       [NEW] ACTION: ALL to join these sub-groups [recorded in
>       [23]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-mediaann-minutes.html#action02]
>       [NEW] ACTION: Joakim to ask Larry Masinter or other Adobe's contact
>       in order to know if there is an XMP schema we can have access too
>       [recorded in
>       [24]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-mediaann-minutes.html#action05]
>       [NEW] ACTION: Thierry to chase the non-responders [recorded in
>       [25]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-mediaann-minutes.html#action04]
>       [NEW] ACTION: Thierry to provide the list of all formats considered
>       in the mapping table with the person who did the mapping, leading
>       each sub-group [recorded in
>       [26]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-mediaann-minutes.html#action01]
>       [NEW] ACTION: Thierry to re-open the questionnaire and invite people
>       to really respond even if they have no preferences, in order to get
>       a quorum of responses [recorded in
>       [27]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/10-mediaann-minutes.html#action03]
> 
>       [End of minutes]
> 
> 
>     -- 
>     RaphaŽl Troncy
>     CWI (Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science),
>     Science Park 123, 1098 XG Amsterdam, The Netherlands
>     e-mail: raphael.troncy@cwi.nl <mailto:raphael.troncy@cwi.nl> &
>     raphael.troncy@gmail.com <mailto:raphael.troncy@gmail.com>
>     Tel: +31 (0)20 - 592 4093
>     Fax: +31 (0)20 - 592 4312
>     Web: http://www.cwi.nl/~troncy/ <http://www.cwi.nl/%7Etroncy/>
> 
> 
Received on Wednesday, 11 March 2009 13:23:33 GMT

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