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Re: Possible Idea For a Sem Web Based Game?

From: Pierre-Antoine Champin <swlists-040405@champin.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 09:39:41 +0100
Message-ID: <4D087ECD.9090805@champin.net>
To: Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>
CC: Semantic Web <semantic-web@w3.org>, Linked Data community <public-lod@w3.org>
Melvin,

(sorry to the others, I used the wrong address to post to the mailing 
lists, so my previous message didn't get through)

you wrote:
 > You dont need smart servers, just socially aware cloud storage.  Flat
 > files are fine, you can let Agents do all the middleware.

ok, I should'nt have used the term 'server'; I was not considering 
cloud-storage (yet)...

It does not really change my point, though: if you only trust a single 
agent ("dungeon master") to manage game-data and enforce game logic, you 
end up with a rather centralized system.

On the other hand, distributing the game logic is harder:
- how do different agents maintain consistency of the game?
- how do you trust a newly discovered agent?
- how do you know that several agents are not colluding to cheat?

But obviously, I merely scratched the surface, while you seem to have 
clearer ideas on the subject... :) -- thanks for the links by the way.

I'll keep an eye on that.

   pa

On 12/15/2010 12:39 AM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
> On 14 December 2010 22:21, Pierre-Antoine Champin
> <pierre-antoine.champin@liris.cnrs.fr>  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> this is fun, but we have to ask ourselves: what is the added value of
>> RDF/sem-web/linked-data here?
>> What does http://drogon.me/ have that wouldn't be possible with HTML+PHP?
>
> To me the Web, particularly the Sem Web is a universal space whose key
> advantage is interoperability.
>
> So, each world can interop with similar worlds.
>
> Also worlds can operate with other parts of the Semantic Web Space.  I
> use the acronym SEMANTIC to describe key areas:
>
> Social
> Entertainment
> Markets
> Access
> Nearby services
> Trust
> Information management
> Currencies
>
> So a game can be social, have trading with virtual currencies and
> markets, you can interact with a personal or public web of trust, with
> existing information or things in the real world in your locality (eg
> augmented reality), using web standards.
>
> Granted each area on the list is still in an embryonic phase.  But
> this is a level of interop simply not available in other systems.
>
> We've seen linking of basic social and trust in PHP+HTML (facebook)
> and social and entertainment (zynga) get some traction.  But when we
> have interop across all areas we'll have a that much more powerful
> system.
>
>> Don't get me wrong, I think those ideas is great, and kudos to you guys for
>> turning them into code so quickly!
>>
>> My two cents on this question:
>>
>> 1/ linking to real world data is definitely an interesting track, because
>> this leverages existing linked data for the purpose of the game
>
> Yes, agree, leverage interop.
>
>>
>> 2/ another way to use linked data principles is that the game can be
>> distributed, even more so than an HTML-based game.
>
> Exactly.
>
>>
>> I imagine that every character, place, item... could have its own RDF
>> description, linking to each other. A triple between two objects (X is
>> located at Y, X owns Z...) is considered true only if both the subject and
>> the object claim it.
>>
>> This implies that the RDF files are hosted by "smart" servers that will
>> allow updates by anybody, but under certain conditions.
>
> You dont need smart servers, just socially aware cloud storage.  Flat
> files are fine, you can let Agents do all the middleware.
>
> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/CloudStorage.html
>
>>
>> For example, a place will acknowledge that it contains a person only if the
>> person claims to be in that place, and only there.
>
> This is game logic.  It need not reside on a server.
>
>>
>> The protocol might be tricky to design for more complex things like
>> transactions. I imagine that an item would change its owner only after
>> checking that both the old and the new owner explictly agree on the
>> transaction
>>
>>   <#me>  game:agreesOn [
>>     a game:Transaction ;
>>     game:give some:sword ;
>>     game:receive some:money ;
>>   ]
>
> Im working on an economic aspect.  This is an interesting proposal on
> transactions and contracts:
>
> http://iang.org/papers/ricardian_contract.html
>
> I have reasonable confidence we can introduce a sophisticated economy
> that can be leveraged by all sem web projects, probably before end of
> next year.
>
>>
>> Plus, the buyer would have to trust the sword not cheat on them and return
>> to its previous owner without notice...
>>
>> Fights will probably be even trickier... But I think the idea is worth
>> exploring...
>
> Many ways to model this, again agents can handle this.
>
> Traditional architecture is
>
> client<-->  middleware<-->  data store
>
> Web oriented architecture is more flexible and can have, in addition:
>
> client<-->  data store
> client<-->  agent<-->  data store
> client<-->  data store<-->  agent
>
> With trust and PKI regulating actions.  Of course we see why WebID is
> important here too.
>
>>
>>   pa
>>
>>
>> On 12/02/2010 01:20 AM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2 December 2010 01:13, Toby Inkster<tai@g5n.co.uk>    wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 23:06:42 +0100
>>>> Melvin Carvalho<melvincarvalho@gmail.com>    wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think the next thing I need to model is 'items'.
>>>>>
>>>>> At present need to work out a way to say a location has an item.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps model it the other direction?
>>>>
>>>>         <item22>    game:initial_position<node394>    .
>>>
>>> I was thinking more along the lines of:
>>>
>>> Location x has
>>>    item 1
>>>    item 2
>>>    player 1
>>>    player 2
>>>
>>> With a trusted Agent(dungeon master) adding them to a copy of the game
>>> world.
>>>
>>> The DM is allowed to sparql update the locations via insert and
>>> delete, contains the game logic, and interacts with players.
>>>
>>> In this way you can have 1 or more DM's given access to administer the
>>> worlds, the best DMs would become 'resident' in the game world.
>>>
>>> Agree, it's not the only way to model it, but I like the idea of a
>>> file based solution mediated by agents.
>>>
>>> Make sense?
>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Toby A Inkster
>>>> <mailto:mail@tobyinkster.co.uk>
>>>> <http://tobyinkster.co.uk>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
Received on Wednesday, 15 December 2010 08:42:20 UTC

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