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RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Translatability

From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:58:11 +0100
To: "'Yves Savourel'" <ysavourel@translate.com>, <public-i18n-its@w3.org>
Message-ID: <013e01c6d766$8fc869b0$6601a8c0@w3cishida>

Just a quick response for now:

> I was wondering also if capitalizing the first word of the 
> data catgory names would help (in general)?


Upper-casing may indeed help. We ought to use <kw>translate</kw> markup for
these.  Do we not?  Links too can help visually distinguish them, without
the need for upper casing - a link to the data category description each
time we use the term would probably be useful, and easy to implement with
global search and replace.  This is the way things are done in the HTML and
CSS specifications.

eg. a random selection from the XHTML2 spec gives [by the <a class="eref"
href="mod-tables.html#edef_tables_table">table</a> element.]

"the Translate data category" doesn't sound so strange to me, as long as it
has a 'the' before it.

I like to work with practical examples, so I culled some single instances of
most uses of the word 'translatability' in the text and I'll try
substituting alternatives. (I'm using upper casing to create
distinctiveness, though I'd prefer to use the HTML/CSS approach):

[1] original 

"a simple way to work with the translatability data category in "
"a specification of defaults for translatability and exceptions"
"For specification of the translatability information, the"
"it pertains to the data category translatability"
"data categories that express a closed set of values; that is:
translatability, directionality and elements within text"
"A different implementation would be a translateRule element that allows for
specifying global rules about translatability."
"because the default for translatability in elements is "yes"."
"that information about translatability refers only to textual content"
"Translatability can be expressed with global rules, or locally on an
individual element."
"Example 22: Translatability expressed globally"
"It is not possible to override the translatability of attributes using
local markup"
"The translatability information to be applied to selected nodes."

[2] using "Translation"

"a simple way to work with the Translation data category in "
"a specification of defaults for Translation and exceptions"
"For specification of the Translation information, the"
"it pertains to the data category Translation"
"data categories that express a closed set of values; that is: Translation,
Directionality and Elements within text"
"A different implementation would be a translateRule element that allows for
specifying global rules about Translation."
"because the default for Translation in elements is "yes"."
"that information about Translation refers only to textual content"
"Translation can be expressed with global rules, or locally on an individual
element."
"Example 22: Translation expressed globally"
"It is not possible to override the Translation of attributes using local
markup"
"The Translation information to be applied to selected nodes."


[3] using "Translation Information"

"a simple way to work with the Translation Information data category in "
"a specification of defaults for Translation Information and exceptions"
"For specification of the Translation Information information, the"
"it pertains to the data category Translation Information"
"data categories that express a closed set of values; that is: Translation
Information, Directionality and Elements Within Text"
"A different implementation would be a translateRule element that allows for
specifying global rules about Translation Information."
"because the default for Translation Information in elements is "yes"."
"that information about Translation Information refers only to textual
content"
"Translation Information can be expressed with global rules, or locally on
an individual element."
"Example 22: Translation Information expressed globally"
"It is not possible to override the Translation Information of attributes
using local markup"
"The Translation Information information to be applied to selected nodes."

[4] using "Translation Information"

"a simple way to work with the Translate Information data category in "
"a specification of defaults for Translate Information and exceptions"
"For specification of the Translate Information information, the"
"it pertains to the data category Translate Information"
"data categories that express a closed set of values; that is: Translate
Information, directionality and elements within text"
"A different implementation would be a translateRule element that allows for
specifying global rules about Translate Information."
"because the default for Translate Information in elements is "yes"."
"that information about Translate Information refers only to textual
content"
"Translate Information can be expressed with global rules, or locally on an
individual element."
"Example 22: Translate Information expressed globally"
"It is not possible to override the Translate Information of attributes
using local markup"
"The Translate Information information to be applied to selected nodes."


[5] using "Translate"

"a simple way to work with the Translate data category in "
"a specification of defaults for Translate and exceptions"
"For specification of the Translate information, the"
"it pertains to the data category Translate"
"data categories that express a closed set of values; that is: Translate,
Directionality and Elements Within Text"
"A different implementation would be a translateRule element that allows for
specifying global rules about Translate."
"because the default for Translate in elements is "yes"."
"that information about Translate refers only to textual content"
"Translate can be expressed with global rules, or locally on an individual
element."
"Example 22: Translate expressed globally"
"It is not possible to override the Translate settings of attributes using
local markup"
"The Translate information to be applied to selected nodes."



I suppose Translation Information is not so bad, given that we already have
Language Information (or should that just be Language ;), though it too
needs some styling to show that it is a category name to avoid confusion
with natural langauge. I still like Translate, though.  With some link
styling or other styling this shouldn't be confused with the verb.


Hope that helps,
RI



============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)

http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-i18n-its-request@w3.org 
> [mailto:public-i18n-its-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Yves Savourel
> Sent: 13 September 2006 18:31
> To: public-i18n-its@w3.org
> Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Translatability
> 
> 
> Hi Richard, Sebastian,
> 
> Refering to today's discussion about changing 
> "Transltability" to "Translate"
> 
> I've been looking at the document and it seems "Translate" 
> will be a bit difficult. The main reason is that it is a 
> verb, not a noun. All the other data categories are nouns, 
> and when trying to change to "translate" or (more often) 
> "translate data category"
> the text looks often very awkward.
> 
> Again, I wonder if "Translate information" would be better?
> 
> Any thoughts?
> -yves
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-i18n-its-request@w3.org 
> [mailto:public-i18n-its-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Richard Ishida
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 5:45 AM
> To: public-i18n-its@w3.org
> Cc: www-i18n-comments@w3.org; public-i18n-core@w3.org
> Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Translatability
> 
> 
> The i18n Core WG still feels that 'translatability' is 
> incorrect for describing this data category, since it is 
> typically used to describe whether something has been enabled 
> for translation, rather than whether something should be 
> translated or not.
> 
> We would like the ITS group to consider one more time whether 
> this can be changed.
> 
> Suggested alternatives:
> Translate
> Translate flag
> Translate switch
> Translate information
> Translate directive
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> RI
> 
> ============
> Richard Ishida
> Internationalization Lead
> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
> 
> http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
> http://www.w3.org/International/
> http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
>  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Felix Sasaki [mailto:fsasaki@w3.org]
> > Sent: 11 September 2006 01:53
> > To: ishida@w3.org
> > Cc: www-i18n-comments@w3.org; public-i18n-core@w3.org; 
> > public-i18n-its@w3.org
> > Subject: Re: [Comment on ITS WD] Translatability
> > 
> > Hello i18n core,
> > 
> > This is a reply on behalf of the i18n ITS working group. See also
> > http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3481 for our 
> discussion 
> > .
> > 
> > Thank you very much for your comment. We propose not to change the 
> > name of the data category, and keep "translatability".
> > 
> > Please let us know within 2 weeks if you are satisfied. If we don't 
> > hear  from you , we will assume this issue as closed.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Felix
> > 
> > 
> > ishida@w3.org wrote:
> > > Comment from the i18n review of:
> > > http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-its-20060518/
> > > 
> > > Comment 5
> > > At http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/
> > > Editorial/substantive: E
> > > Owner: RI
> > > 
> > > Location in reviewed document:
> > > 6.2
> > > 
> > > Comment: 
> > > 'Translatability' is not a good term for this, since it is
> > already used in the sense of internationalization to allow for easy 
> > translation. Perhaps "Translation information" would be better, and 
> > more consistent with other data category titles.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > FS: The first ITS WD already talks about "translatabilty". 
> > So does the requirements document
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-itsreq-20050805/#transinfo . 
> > Given this long history of the term which you must be aware of, I 
> > disagree with your request to change it. I also disagree with your 
> > argument of consistency with other data
> > categories: Our envisaged users are likely to focus only on 
> a subset 
> > of data categories, see also the conformance section which 
> separates 
> > data categories. Hence, consistency of naming is not so 
> important, but 
> > rather consistency between ITS working drafts, implementations, 
> > presentations, ... .
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I18n: There is no need to be consistent in this regard with
> > past working drafts. People should expect Working Drafts to 
> change, as 
> > described in the status section. There is a much greater need to go 
> > forward with appropriate terminology.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > We don't see that this is a difficult change to make. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > "Our envisaged users are likely to focus only on a subset
> > of data categories" We believe this is irrelevant to appropriate 
> > naming of a given data category, but in addition I don't 
> think you are 
> > proposing that the 'translatability'
> > category will always be usedindependently of other 
> implementations, so 
> > I don't think this argument holds.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > We may be prepared to accept that 'Translation Information' 
> > is too vague. Alternative suggestions for the title are 'Translate 
> > Information' or 'Translate Directive'.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
Received on Wednesday, 13 September 2006 18:58:27 UTC

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