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[I18N ITS] Teleconference Minutes 2006-04-26

From: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 14:30:31 +0900
Message-ID: <445056F7.2070005@w3.org>
To: public-i18n-its@w3.org
... are at

http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html

and below as text. There is one additional action item (which is not
explicit in the minutes): "Everybody, please give feedback to Yves on
the requirements document until Friday", see
http://www.w3.org/International/its/requirements/Overview.html

I already pinged Richard on IRC about
http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action28 ( Richard to
discuss with people whether we should change the title of the
"techniques doc" to "best practices")

As for action item
http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action10 "Felix to
check how license should be handled in the schema": W3C produces only
royalty-free specs and schemas, so there are now license obligations.

Regards, Felix.


   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                        i18n ITS working group

26 Apr 2006

   [2]Agenda

      [2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0095.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Christian, Diane, Felix, Goutam, Sebastian, Yves

   Regrets
          Richard

   Chair
          Yves

   Scribe
          Felix

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]action items
         2. [6]"Attaching information to the object associated to a
            selected node"
         3. [7]within text
         4. [8]other business
     * [9]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

action items

   <scribe> ACTION: Felix to write a paragraph about the version
   attribute (DONE) [recorded in
   [10]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action01]

   mail with the paragraph:
   [11]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0
   037.html

     [11]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0037.html

   yves: any comments on this?

   sebastian: I'll send some English corrections, except that it is
   fine

   felix: schematron rules at
   [12]http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/its-constraints-ch
   eck-schematron.xml
   ... they check also the version constraints

     [12]
http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/its-constraints-check-schematron.xml

   yves:so the version topic can be closed?

   sebastian: please bear in mind that it is not implemented in the
   examples, the spec and the specification

   <scribe> ACTION: Yves to send a mail to ask for the dates of the
   next f2f (DONE) [recorded in
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action02]

   yves: nobody against it, we will decide next meeting

   <scribe> ACTION: Everybody to think about which W3C working groups
   shoud comment on the tagset last call draft (ONGOING) [recorded in
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action03]

   yves: need also decide a publication date today
   ... we have already a list of groups.
   ... Felix proposed the 18th of May, before the AC meeting
   ... the publication request would be on the 15th
   ... the question is: will we have time to implement the changes and
   to fix everything?

   felix: would be fine with me

   christian: changes for the non-normative sections will not be too
   many, I'll be able to do it

   yves: so the 15th is o.k.
   ... so we should have a consensus on the 10th, that is in two weeks
   ... we can also vote via mail, if somebody can't make that meeting
   ... o.k., so we go for the 18th for publication

   <scribe> ACTION: Discussion on versionning (DONE) [recorded in
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action04]

   <scribe> ACTION: All make sure "rules" is using non-prefix
   attributes in all samples and test (ONGOING) [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action05]

   <scribe> ACTION: Christian to propose a wording for the inclusion
   issue (ONGOING) [recorded in
   [17]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action06]

   <YvesS> wording proposal:
   [18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0
   088.html

     [18]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0088.html

   christian: we all have consensus, only the wording is difficult
   ... mabye we wording which felix proposed raises more questions than
   it answers
   ... e.g. questions from non-technical people
   ... so I'd propose: have the wording what Felix proposed, plus a
   note I would create

   yves: the original wording from Christian seems to have a different
   interpretation than the one Felix proposed

   christian: we want to say: the resolution of inclusions is outside
   of an ITS processor
   ... e.g. there is no need for an ITS processor to follow conref

   sebastian: we want to say "ITS gives you no advice, it is up to you
   what you do"

   yves: and ITS does not rely on whose inclusions?

   sebastian: yes

   yves: I liked Felix wording because it said "you MUST NOT take into
   account the inclusion thing"

   sebastian: if you apply an XInclude processor to your document, you
   would get another document with possibly two rules

   yves:having two rules would be illegal

   sebastian: it is the users responsibilty, if they break things

   <scribe> ACTION: christian and felix to finish the text for the
   inclusion issue (felix creates normative part, christian
   non-normative part) [recorded in
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action07]

   <scribe> ACTION: Christian to integrate changes in section 1.1 and
   1.2 within 2 weeks. (PENDING) [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action08]

   <scribe> ACTION: Felix to change the ODD to have no-prefixed
   attributes at the rules element (with SR help). (DONE) [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action09]

   <scribe> ACTION: Felix to check how license should be handled in the
   schema. (PENDING) [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action10]

   <scribe> ACTION: Felix to produce descriptions for each entry in the
   schema. (ONGOING) [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action11]

   sebastian: I did most of the stuff, there is s.t. to do mainly in
   the ruby section

   <scribe> ACTION: Felix to specify the "required-ness" of attributes
   when needed in the schemas (PENDING) [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action12]

   sebastian: I think most of those things are sorted, now the local
   and global attributes are in different namespaces

   christian: how about defaults?

   sebastian: Since the don't exist in xml schema, we can't use them

   <scribe> ACTION: Sebastian and Felix to add comment in ODD to have
   it inside the generated schema to explain how it was created.
   (ONGOING) [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action13]

   sebastian: we just need to check that, felix will make a first draft
   of the words

   <scribe> ACTION: Sebastian to get rid of "empties" from generated
   schema (PENDING) [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action14]

   <scribe> ACTION: Yves to change its implementation to fix
   its:translate/translate (DONE) [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action15]

   <scribe> ACTION: Yves to send his docbook+ITS schema and the
   description of it to Felix; (DONE) [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action16]

   <scribe> ACTION: Felix to integrate docbook+ITS into the tagset
   draft (DROPPED) [recorded in
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action17]

   <scribe> ACTION: Sebastian and yves to work on integration of
   modularization section into techniques document [recorded in
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action18]

   <scribe> ACTION: Yves to work on the Requirements document for
   publication at the same time as the Last call of the specification.
   (DONE) [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action19]

   yves: please look at the new version at
   [32]http://www.w3.org/International/its/requirements/Overview.html
   ... I did not put everything which was on the wiki, since some
   articles were not finished
   ... please have a look and send feedback about the requirements
   document this week

     [32] http://www.w3.org/International/its/requirements/Overview.html

   <scribe> ACTION: All to try out the "translate" test case to achieve
   compatibility of output (ONGOING) [recorded in
   [33]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action20]

   yves: tried to come up with something, will post that soon
   ... this has lower priority

   <scribe> ACTION: All to work on examples: Christian takes 1-9, Felix
   10-18, Sebastian 19-28, Yves 29 - 37 (ONGOING) [recorded in
   [34]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action21]

   sebastian: I checked that all are valid
   ... still people should look at them and see if they make sense, or
   could be improved

   christian: where are the examples?

   sebastian: I will send a copy around

   <scribe> ACTION: Christian to change the statement about the
   requirements in the introduction (DONE) [recorded in
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action22]

   <YvesS>
   [36]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0
   089.html

     [36]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0089.html

   christian: who will confirm the formal name?

   yves: richard has to check the name
   ... any comments beside the name?
   ... that name will be a bibliographical reference, so changing the
   reference will automatically update the paragraph?

   christian: not sure if that works

   <scribe> ACTION: Christian to write s.t. about the "process=no" flag
   proposal for the tagset draft (DONE) [recorded in
   [37]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action23]

   felix: let's discuss that later, after the other action items

   <scribe> ACTION: Felix to add a rbspanPointer attribute to rubyRule
   (PENDING) [recorded in
   [38]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action24]

   <scribe> ACTION: Felix to change the RFC 2119 keywords to upper case
   (DONE) [recorded in
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action25]

   felix: sebastian did that

   <scribe> ACTION: Felix to cut sec. 7 out of the tagset draft, to
   make it ready for the techniques document (DONE) [recorded in
   [40]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action26]

   felix: done by sebastian

   <scribe> ACTION: Richard to discuss the third conformance level of
   ruby to the core working group (DROPPED) [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action27]

   felix: this topic will be discussed in the core working group, we
   don't have to keep track of it

   <scribe> ACTION: Richard to discuss with people whether we should
   change the title of the "techniques doc" to "best practices",
   (PENDING) [recorded in
   [42]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action28]

   yves: very important, I'll ping Richard

   <scribe> ACTION: Richard to give Yves the latest stylesheets and css
   etc. for the techniques document (DROPPED) [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action29]

   yves: that action item can be dropped

   <scribe> ACTION: Sebastian to validate the examples in the spec
   (DONE) [recorded in
   [44]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action30]

   <scribe> ACTION: Yves to explore the reference attributes (termRef,
   locRef) with regard to spliting URI "base versus fragment" (PENDING)
   [recorded in
   [45]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action31]

   <scribe> ACTION: Yves to rework the requirements document (DONE)
   [recorded in
   [46]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action32]

"Attaching information to the object associated to a selected node"

   yves: the process="no" or "yes" issue

   <YvesS> the bug is here:
   [47]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0
   089.html

     [47]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0089.html

   felix: mail thread about the topic:

   [48]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0
   094.html

     [48]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0094.html

   [49]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0
   097.html

     [49]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0097.html

   [50]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0
   102.html

     [50]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0102.html

   [51]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0
   103.html

     [51]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0103.html

   christian: in Oxford we found out two things:
   ... we want to attach an information like its:translate="no" related
   to non-textual data
   ... the current wording for default selections for example would not
   work for cases we looked at
   ... e.g. the image data which needs to be localized
   ... the proposal I wrote tried to explain the problem which we want
   to solve
   ... we discussed creating a specific marker for rules
   ... the marker would tell the ITS processor that the information
   should not be processed
   ... Felix concerns: on one hand, it is strange, that an image should
   be translated
   ... another concerned: the comparison between xsd and "don't
   process" is not appropriate
   ... Felix also mentioned related to inheritance and precedence
   ... these concerns need to be addressed
   ... in the mail
   [52]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0
   103.html , there was also the idea to have an additional data
   category
   ... e.g. which could be named "localize"
   ... it would be similar to translate, but would have different
   default selections for example

     [52]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0103.html

   yves: we did talk about a new data category, because if you do an
   assignement locally, you cannot use a different attribute

   felix: what should be selected by XPath? e.g. the @src attribute

   yves: should we have that data category for now?

   felix: maybe it is too late?

   sebastian: christian is right to bring the issue up
   ... how about having a paragraph before the 18th?
   ... and see if we resolve the inheritance / precedence and other
   issues with a new data category

   felix: would be fine with me

   yves: could you think about this, christian?

   christian: I will write the paragraph explaining the issue

   <scribe> ACTION: christian to write a paragraph describing the
   requirement for ITS information about non-textual objects [recorded
   in [53]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action33]

   felix: to be integrated in the tagset document

   christian: it is already in the mail I wrote
   ... where should it be in the draft?

   yves: in the translate section

   felix: what part from christians mail should be integrated?

   <chriLi> >> In certain cases, it is necessary to attach ITS
   information to element ...

   yves: I will think about the inheritance issue
   ... at least we will talk about it in the draft

within text

   yves: we need to make some changes to within text
   ... Andrzej almost convinced me that we need the subflow attribute
   ... I would provide Felix with text about that
   ... by Friday

   <scribe> ACTION: Yves to write text about within text (including the
   subflow attribute) by Friday [recorded in
   [54]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action34]

other business

   felix: I'll be on holiday next week
   ... on Wednesday at the call, but holiday on Thursday and Friday

   Yves: also will have holiday, will try to be at the meeting
   ... should we meet on Friday?

   Felix: we can work on our own

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: christian and felix to finish the text for the
   inclusion issue (felix creates normative part, christian
   non-normative part) [recorded in
   [55]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action07]
   [NEW] ACTION: christian to write a paragraph describing the
   requirement for ITS information about non-textual objects [recorded
   in [56]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action33]
   [NEW] ACTION: Sebastian and yves to work on integration of
   modularization section into techniques document [recorded in
   [57]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action18]
   [NEW] ACTION: Yves to write text about within text (including the
   subflow attribute) by Friday [recorded in
   [58]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action34]

   [PENDING] ACTION: All make sure "rules" is using non-prefix
   attributes in all samples and test [recorded in
   [59]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action05]
   [PENDING] ACTION: All to try out the "translate" test case to
   achieve compatibility of output [recorded in
   [60]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action20]
   [PENDING] ACTION: All to work on examples: Christian takes 1-9,
   Felix 10-18, Sebastian 19-28, Yves 29 - 37 [recorded in
   [61]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action21]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Christian to integrate changes in section 1.1 and
   1.2 within 2 weeks. [recorded in
   [62]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action08]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Christian to propose a wording for the inclusion
   issue [recorded in
   [63]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action06]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Everybody to think about which W3C working groups
   shoud comment on the tagset last call draft [recorded in
   [64]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action03]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Felix to add a rbspanPointer attribute to rubyRule
   [recorded in
   [65]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action24]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Felix to check how license should be handled in
   the schema. [recorded in
   [66]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action10]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Felix to produce descriptions for each entry in
   the schema. [recorded in
   [67]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action11]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Felix to specify the "required-ness" of attributes
   when needed in the schemas [recorded in
   [68]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Richard to discuss with people whether we should
   change the title of the "techniques doc" to "best practices",
   [recorded in
   [69]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action28]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Sebastian and Felix to add comment in ODD to have
   it inside the generated schema to explain how it was created.
   [recorded in
   [70]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action13]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Sebastian to get rid of "empties" from generated
   schema [recorded in
   [71]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action14]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Yves to explore the reference attributes (termRef,
   locRef) with regard to spliting URI "base versus fragment" [recorded
   in [72]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action31]

   [DONE] ACTION: Christian to change the statement about the
   requirements in the introduction [recorded in
   [73]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action22]
   [DONE] ACTION: Christian to write s.t. about the "process=no" flag
   proposal for the tagset draft [recorded in
   [74]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action23]
   [DONE] ACTION: Discussion on versionning [recorded in
   [75]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action04]
   [DONE] ACTION: Felix to change the ODD to have no-prefixed
   attributes at the rules element (with SR help). [recorded in
   [76]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action09]
   [DONE] ACTION: Felix to change the RFC 2119 keywords to upper case
   [recorded in
   [77]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action25]
   [DONE] ACTION: Felix to cut sec. 7 out of the tagset draft, to make
   it ready for the techniques document [recorded in
   [78]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action26]
   [DONE] ACTION: Felix to write a paragraph about the version
   attribute [recorded in
   [79]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action01]
   [DONE] ACTION: Sebastian to validate the examples in the spec
   [recorded in
   [80]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action30]
   [DONE] ACTION: Yves to change its implementation to fix
   its:translate/translate [recorded in
   [81]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action15]
   [DONE] ACTION: Yves to rework the requirements document [recorded in
   [82]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action32]
   [DONE] ACTION: Yves to send a mail to ask for the dates of the next
   f2f [recorded in
   [83]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action02]
   [DONE] ACTION: Yves to send his docbook+ITS schema and the
   description of it to Felix [recorded in
   [84]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action16]
   [DONE] ACTION: Yves to work on the Requirements document for
   publication at the same time as the Last call of the specification.
   [recorded in
   [85]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action19]

   [DROPPED] ACTION: Richard to give Yves the latest stylesheets and
   css etc. for the techniques document [recorded in
   [86]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action29]
   [DROPPED] ACTION: Felix to integrate docbook+ITS into the tagset
   draft [recorded in
   [87]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action17]
   [DROPPED] ACTION: Richard to discuss the third conformance level of
   ruby to the core working group [recorded in
   [88]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/26-i18nits-minutes.html#action27]

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


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