- From: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
- Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:13:29 +0900
- To: public-i18n-its@w3.org
- Message-ID: <4445D509.6040703@w3.org>
... are at http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html and below as text. - Felix [1]W3C [1] http://www.w3.org/ i18n ITS working group (Oxford f2f) 18 Apr 2006 [2]Agenda [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0024.html See also: [3]IRC log [3] http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc Attendees Present Christian, Felix, Sebastian, Yves Regrets Chair Yves Scribe Felix Contents * [4]Topics 1. [5]agenda check 2. [6]versioning 3. [7]processing expectations for directionality or ruby 4. [8]bug http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2915 "relationship between host vocabulary markup data" 5. [9]metadata for rules, see http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3068 6. [10]Indicator of constraints 7. [11]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3039 check constraints of global rules 8. [12]proposal for grouping rules 9. [13]conformance section (again) 10. [14]integrate conformance discussion in the draft 11. [15]topics for tomorrow * [16]Summary of Action Items _________________________________________________________ agenda check sebastian: one additional topic: what does an implementation mean? yves: that is handled in the conformance section, basically it is "use selection" for the data category ... we handle that during the "implementation" topic versioning yves: three proposals: ... 1)version attribute at the root ... 2) same as 1), but if the attribute is absent, it is "1.0" ... 3) version attribute at the root, or if there is a <rules> element, version attribute at <rules> Sebastian: two issues: default for versioning, and position of versioning ... how about XInclude? Where do you process the version? ... do you process this before or after inclusion? felix: we process what is in XML 1.0, which includes entities, but not DITA or XInclude etc. sebastian: we should articulate that in the draft <scribe> ACTION: editors to write a paragraph about relation of inclusion of external information (XInclude, DITA inclusion)versus ITS processing [recorded in [17]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action01] sebastian: versioning again: implimentation of version attributes if they don't have a fixed root yves: for example DITA has no fixed root ... summary of discussion: version attribute should be at the root element example: <x its:version="1.0"><its:rules...</x> <x> is a root element <its:rules version="1.0" <its:rules> is root element felix: define the version as a global version attribute sebastian: you would need to modify the whole schema to do that yves: no consensus yet, we handle the topic at the end of the meeting or later again processing expectations for directionality or ruby yves: felix proposed to point to the W3C ruby TR, and for directionality XHTML 2.0 christian: what will happen if an editor encountors ruby markup? yves: it depends if the editor wants to complie with the markup part or the processing part ... if the latter is the case, it has to be compliant with external specs felix: I don't propose s.t. new, but to see if you are fine with the current spec yves: we don't have a processor for the global rules of ruby and ITS ... we might have to drop at some point the selection mechanism and replace it with real mapping <scribe> ACTION: editors to make conformance of ruby and directionality clearer (esp. with regard to processing of global rules) [recorded in [18]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action02] <scribe> ACTION: editors to repair [19]http://www.w3.org/1999/xlinkf to give the right namespace [recorded in [20]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action03] [19] http://www.w3.org/1999/xlinkf <scribe> ACTION: editors to add markup to "alt" [recorded in [21]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action04] bug [22]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2915 "relationship between host vocabulary markup data" [22] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2915 christian: description on how to associate the host markup with ITS yves: question if there is more information in ITS or in the host vocabulary with respect to a data category ... if it is the same amount of information, it is fine to associate both, if it is different, it is maby not possible ... this is a general problem of ITS. The specific one for term: what is a term? ... there is no agreement on what a term is <scribe> ACTION: editors to repair numbering of conformance clauses in sec. [23]http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#conformance-product-processing-expecta tions [recorded in [24]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action05] [23] http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#conformance-product-processing-expectations yves: we need examples for terms in sec [25]http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#terms [25] http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#terms <scribe> ACTION: all to write examples of what a term is, and what it is used for [recorded in [26]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action06] yves: dt element in XHTML is an index marker. sebastian: TEI has a term element. ... we need a better example for example 22 <scribe> ACTION: all to make a better example for example 22 [recorded in [27]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action07] <rahtz> TEI: <desc>contains a single-word, multi-word, or symbolic designation <rahtz> which is regarded as a technical term.</desc> <rahtz> TEI example: A computational device that infers structure from grammatical <rahtz> strings of words is known as a <term>parser</term>, and much <rahtz> of the history of NLP over the last 20 years has been occupied <rahtz> with the design of parsers christian: what if the host vocabulary has a different data type? <rahtz> its:termRef="[28]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parser" [28] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parser christian: e.g. anyURI versus NMTOKEN felix: that would not work ... is that only a problem for anyURI, that is all pointer attributes, ref attributes? christian: how about the pointer attributes? Do they select all content, e.g. including child elements or not? sebastian: its:termRef="[29]http://example.com/termdatabase/#x142539"/> : what more information would you need here? [29] http://example.com/termdatabase/#x142539 christian: people want to know that this reference is e.g. a password secured java data base sebastian: the storage mechanism is hard to grap here yves: it might be different with termRefPointer, e.g. you want to be sure that it is an URI <scribe> ACTION: all to provide an example for termRefPointer for the draft [recorded in [30]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action08] <rahtz> "To point a link to a term reference in the current document, a termRefPointer can be used" <rahtz> "To point to a link to term reference in the current documentation, a termRefPointer can be used" <scribe> ACTION: editors to implement Sebastians change for termRefPointer definition [recorded in [31]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action09] <rahtz> "To point to a link to a term reference in the current document, a termRefPointer can be used" sebastian: example: dt with href attribute <rahtz> example: We may define <term xml:id="TDPV" rend="sc">discoursal point of view</term> <rahtz> as <gloss target="#TDPV">the relationship, expressed through discourse <rahtz> structure, between the implied author or some other addresser, <rahtz> and the fiction.</gloss> <rahtz> We may define <term target="#TDPV">discoursal point of view</term> <rahtz> as <gloss xml:id="TDPV">the relationship, expressed through discourse <rahtz> structure, between the implied author or some other addresser, <rahtz> and the fiction.</gloss> summary of associating discussion: If you have semantics / processing expectations in the host vocabulary scribe: which are an addition to what ITS specifies, the assocation can be done christian: I am fine with what is informally described at [32]http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#d3e180 [32] http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#d3e180 yves: "Associating existing markup with ITS data categories can be only done if the processing expecations are the same ... or if the processing expecations of the host markup cover at least the same as ITS" <scribe> ACTION: editor change "Mapping of ITS Data Categories to Existing Markup" to "Associating ITS Data Categories with Existing Markup" [recorded in [33]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action10] <scribe> ACTION: editors to add Yves sentence about associating ITS with existing markup to sec [34]http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#purpose-mapping recorded in [35]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action11] [34] http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#purpose-mapping <rahtz> <its:termRule selector="//tei:term" termRefPointer="@target"/> felix: as for anyURI in the "ref" attributes, we can just say the types should be compatible ... as for XPath expressions in pointer attributes, we can say "the interpretation is the same as the non pointer functionality" sebastian: we need to make clear that all pointer attributes are relative XPath expressions <scribe> ACTION: editors to make clear that all pointer attributes are relative XPath expressions [recorded in [36]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action12] metadata for rules, see [37]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3068 [37] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3068 sebastian: is rules an "island" in the host vocabulary, or is it interleaved. Goes back to the question on <rules> ... e.g. the question "who writes the rules?", or "how are they interleaving?" ... you are inventing a new markup language christian: I would like to see versioning information interleaved with the meta data ... I see a need for having meta data felix: what would you choose? SAP manual, TEI header, dublin core etc.? christian: we could use whatever you like, or we define at least a standardized set of meta data sebastian: should rules be part of meta data, or the other way around? felix: it would take a lot time to do this sebastian: we could describe as a technique "use dublin core for meta data" christian: putting a remark in the techniques document would be fine yves: what vocabulary would that be? ITS or s.t. else? christian: we could stay away from ITS, just say "use what you like" sebastian: if the rules are embedded within a bigger document, are they embedded within the ITS rules? christian: in the ITS rules sebastian: we have identification with xml:id, no need to invent that again ... is it o.k. to have <rules> as an island in another document? if that is possible, you could have all kinds of metadata in that ... we could say "it is good practice to have a time stamp on your file" ... and refer people to the techniques document yves: does it need to be in the ITS tagset draft or in the techniques document? sebastian: processing of the xlink attribute is like descendant-or-self in XPath <scribe> ACTION: editors to change example 13 to add meta data to it [recorded in [38]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action13] Indicator of constraints yves: I would say "version 1.1" [39]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3039 check constraints of global rules [39] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3039 sebastian: we could embedd these examples in the schema yves: is it possible to process this separatly? sebastian: yes christian: will we provide a web service for checking these constraints? felix: W3C has no resources for that :( <scribe> ACTION: Felix to write the constraints for pointer versus not pointer, to be implemented as schematron schema annotations, useable also separately [recorded in [40]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action14] yves: current consensus: wait for comments on the spec proposal for grouping rules yves: this has been postponed to see if the get feedback from the public. conformance section (again) "These conformance types are defined complementary. " -> "These conformance types complement each other. " "subsections in Section 6: Description of Data Categories": this must also talk about sec. 5 "All local ITS attributes should be declared at all elements which are part of the schema." yves: why this? sebastian: if you have valid XML documents, you don't need this felix: this conformance level is for schema authors, without the instance document <chriLi> Could we look at [41]http://www.imsproject.org/metadata/mdbestv1p1.html#Conformance [41] http://www.imsproject.org/metadata/mdbestv1p1.html#Conformance yves: proposal: you have to implement one of the declarations: rules, at least one local attribute, ruby, span ... still have clause 1-1,3,4 ... but not 1-2 ... one additional clause / paragraph: an implementation which implements everything has "complete" markup declarations <chriLi> How about: A schema can fullfil one of two conformance levels: full or partial. <chriLi> Full conformance is defined as follows ... Partial conformance ... <chriLi> And have a note which explains the rationale and advantage. <chriLi> Ex. Advantage of partial conformance: Do not pollute ... <scribe> ACTION: do rewording of conformance sec. 4.1 together [recorded in [42]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action15] sebastian: section 4.2: "generated or validated relying on"->"valid against" yves: "element within text" should not include child elements <scribe> ACTION: editors to change default selection for "element within text" [recorded in [43]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action16] <scribe> ACTION: editors to add a link to data category for conformance clause 2.3 [recorded in [44]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action17] christian: how about not slicing global versus local selection? yves: people might want to use only one of them "it must process all of the XLink href attributes found in the rules elements." -> "it must process an XLink href attribute found on a rules element" "Processing expecations are the information which are necessary to attach ITS information to one or more nodes in an XML document" (proposal by Christian / Sebastian) <chriLi> ITS markup allows information to be attached to XML nodes. Processors need to compute the information which is attached to an XML nodes (or set of nodes) correctlly. <chriLi> Addition: Correct computation especially involves support for selection mechanism, defaults, and precedence. summary: MUST for processing at least one data category, and then 2-1 - 2-3 as a nested list christian: add a sentence to "description": ... "An implementation of a data category MUST (SHOULD?)make explicit what selection (global or local) it supports" <chriLi> selections _and_ data categories? yves: for each datacategory: say you support it or not, and say which selection you support sebastian: how would a conformance claim look like? ... each conformance claim MUST have a matrix about datacat (yes/no), selection global (yes , no), selection local (yes, no) <scribe> ACTION: editors to add xml:id attributes to all div elements (to avoid automatically generated id attributes) [recorded in [45]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action18] integrate conformance discussion in the draft <scribe> ACTION: felix to clean up old change markup from the draft [recorded in [46]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action19] <scribe> ACTION: discuss change of "may" to "should" at The markup may be valid against a schema which is conform to the conformance clauses in Section 4.1: Conformance Type 1: ITS Markup Declarations. [recorded in [47]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action20] <scribe> ACTION: discuss moving the examples of ITS applications (editors etc.) in the conformance "normative" sub section [recorded in [48]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action21] topics for tomorrow See if changes have been integrated properly. address [49]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2877 [49] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2877 [50]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3010 [50] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3010 Summary of Action Items [NEW] ACTION: editors to add markup to "alt" [recorded in [51]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action04] [NEW] ACTION: all to make a better example for example 22 [recorded in [52]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action07] [NEW] ACTION: all to provide an example for termRefPointer for the draft [recorded in [53]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action08] [NEW] ACTION: discuss change of "may" to "should" at The markup may be valid against a schema which is conform to the conformance clauses in Section 4.1: Conformance Type 1: ITS Markup Declarations. [recorded in [54]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action20] [NEW] ACTION: discuss moving the examples of ITS applications (editors etc.) in the conformance "normative" sub section [recorded in [55]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action21] [NEW] ACTION: do rewording of conformance sec. 4.1 together [recorded in [56]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action15] [NEW] ACTION: editor change "Mapping of ITS Data Categories to Existing Markup" to "Associating ITS Data Categories with Existing Markup" [recorded in [57]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action10] [NEW] ACTION: editors to add a link to data category for conformance clause 2.3 [recorded in [58]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action17] [NEW] ACTION: editors to add xml:id attributes to all div elements (to avoid automatically generated id attributes) [recorded in [59]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action18] [NEW] ACTION: editors to add Yves sentence about associating ITS with existing markup to sec [60]http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#purpose-mapping recorded in [61]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action11] [NEW] ACTION: editors to change default selection for "element within text" [recorded in [62]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action16] [NEW] ACTION: editors to change example 13 to add meta data to it [recorded in [63]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action13] [NEW] ACTION: editors to implement Sebastians change for termRefPointer definition [recorded in [64]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action09] [NEW] ACTION: editors to make clear that all pointer attributes are relative XPath expressions [recorded in [65]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action12] [NEW] ACTION: editors to make conformance of ruby and directionality clearer (esp. with regard to processing of global rules) [recorded in [66]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action02] [NEW] ACTION: editors to repair [67]http://www.w3.org/1999/xlinkf to give the right namespace [recorded in [68]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action03] [NEW] ACTION: editors to repair numbering of conformance clauses in sec. [69]http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#conformance-product-processing-expecta tions [recorded in [70]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action05] [NEW] ACTION: editors to write a paragraph about relation of inclusion of external information (XInclude, DITA inclusion)versus ITS processing [recorded in [71]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action01] [NEW] ACTION: felix to clean up old change markup from the draft [recorded in [72]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action19] [NEW] ACTION: Felix to write the constraints for pointer versus not pointer, to be implemented as schematron schema annotations, useable also separately [recorded in [73]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action14] [NEW] ACTION: all to write examples of what a term is, and what it is used for [recorded in [74]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action06] [60] http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#purpose-mapping [67] http://www.w3.org/1999/xlinkf [69] http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#conformance-product-processing-expectations [End of minutes] _________________________________________________________ Minutes formatted by David Booth's [75]scribe.perl version 1.127 ([76]CVS log) $Date: 2006/04/19 06:10:15 $ [75] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm [76] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
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