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ITS Face-to-Face meeting April 2006 (Oxford) minutes, day 1 (18 April, Tuesday)

From: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:13:29 +0900
Message-ID: <4445D509.6040703@w3.org>
To: public-i18n-its@w3.org
... are at

http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html

and below as text.

- Felix


   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                  i18n ITS working group (Oxford f2f)

18 Apr 2006

   [2]Agenda

      [2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0024.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Christian, Felix, Sebastian, Yves

   Regrets
   Chair
          Yves

   Scribe
          Felix

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]agenda check
         2. [6]versioning
         3. [7]processing expectations for directionality or ruby
         4. [8]bug http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2915
            "relationship between host vocabulary markup data"
         5. [9]metadata for rules, see
            http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3068
         6. [10]Indicator of constraints
         7. [11]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3039
            check constraints of global rules
         8. [12]proposal for grouping rules
         9. [13]conformance section (again)
        10. [14]integrate conformance discussion in the draft
        11. [15]topics for tomorrow
     * [16]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

agenda check

   sebastian: one additional topic: what does an implementation mean?

   yves: that is handled in the conformance section, basically it is
   "use selection" for the data category
   ... we handle that during the "implementation" topic

versioning

   yves: three proposals:
   ... 1)version attribute at the root
   ... 2) same as 1), but if the attribute is absent, it is "1.0"
   ... 3) version attribute at the root, or if there is a <rules>
   element, version attribute at <rules>

   Sebastian: two issues: default for versioning, and position of
   versioning
   ... how about XInclude? Where do you process the version?
   ... do you process this before or after inclusion?

   felix: we process what is in XML 1.0, which includes entities, but
   not DITA or XInclude etc.

   sebastian: we should articulate that in the draft

   <scribe> ACTION: editors to write a paragraph about relation of
   inclusion of external information (XInclude, DITA inclusion)versus
   ITS processing [recorded in
   [17]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action01]

   sebastian: versioning again: implimentation of version attributes if
   they don't have a fixed root

   yves: for example DITA has no fixed root
   ... summary of discussion: version attribute should be at the root
   element

   example: <x its:version="1.0"><its:rules...</x>

   <x> is a root element

   <its:rules version="1.0"

   <its:rules> is root element

   felix: define the version as a global version attribute

   sebastian: you would need to modify the whole schema to do that

   yves: no consensus yet, we handle the topic at the end of the
   meeting or later again

processing expectations for directionality or ruby

   yves: felix proposed to point to the W3C ruby TR, and for
   directionality XHTML 2.0

   christian: what will happen if an editor encountors ruby markup?

   yves: it depends if the editor wants to complie with the markup part
   or the processing part
   ... if the latter is the case, it has to be compliant with external
   specs

   felix: I don't propose s.t. new, but to see if you are fine with the
   current spec

   yves: we don't have a processor for the global rules of ruby and ITS
   ... we might have to drop at some point the selection mechanism and
   replace it with real mapping

   <scribe> ACTION: editors to make conformance of ruby and
   directionality clearer (esp. with regard to processing of global
   rules) [recorded in
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action02]

   <scribe> ACTION: editors to repair [19]http://www.w3.org/1999/xlinkf
   to give the right namespace [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action03]

     [19] http://www.w3.org/1999/xlinkf

   <scribe> ACTION: editors to add markup to "alt" [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action04]

bug [22]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2915
"relationship between host vocabulary markup data"

     [22] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2915

   christian: description on how to associate the host markup with ITS

   yves: question if there is more information in ITS or in the host
   vocabulary with respect to a data category
   ... if it is the same amount of information, it is fine to associate
   both, if it is different, it is maby not possible
   ... this is a general problem of ITS. The specific one for term:
   what is a term?
   ... there is no agreement on what a term is

   <scribe> ACTION: editors to repair numbering of conformance clauses
   in sec.
   [23]http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#conformance-product-processing-expecta
   tions [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action05]

     [23]
http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#conformance-product-processing-expectations

   yves: we need examples for terms in sec
   [25]http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#terms

     [25] http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#terms

   <scribe> ACTION: all to write examples of what a term is, and what
   it is used for [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action06]

   yves: dt element in XHTML is an index marker.

   sebastian: TEI has a term element.
   ... we need a better example for example 22

   <scribe> ACTION: all to make a better example for example 22
   [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action07]

   <rahtz> TEI: <desc>contains a single-word, multi-word, or symbolic
   designation

   <rahtz> which is regarded as a technical term.</desc>

   <rahtz> TEI example: A computational device that infers structure
   from grammatical

   <rahtz> strings of words is known as a <term>parser</term>, and much

   <rahtz> of the history of NLP over the last 20 years has been
   occupied

   <rahtz> with the design of parsers

   christian: what if the host vocabulary has a different data type?

   <rahtz> its:termRef="[28]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parser"

     [28] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parser

   christian: e.g. anyURI versus NMTOKEN

   felix: that would not work
   ... is that only a problem for anyURI, that is all pointer
   attributes, ref attributes?

   christian: how about the pointer attributes? Do they select all
   content, e.g. including child elements or not?

   sebastian:
   its:termRef="[29]http://example.com/termdatabase/#x142539"/> : what
   more information would you need here?

     [29] http://example.com/termdatabase/#x142539

   christian: people want to know that this reference is e.g. a
   password secured java data base

   sebastian: the storage mechanism is hard to grap here

   yves: it might be different with termRefPointer, e.g. you want to be
   sure that it is an URI

   <scribe> ACTION: all to provide an example for termRefPointer for
   the draft [recorded in
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action08]

   <rahtz> "To point a link to a term reference in the current
   document, a termRefPointer can be used"

   <rahtz> "To point to a link to term reference in the current
   documentation, a termRefPointer can be used"

   <scribe> ACTION: editors to implement Sebastians change for
   termRefPointer definition [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action09]

   <rahtz> "To point to a link to a term reference in the current
   document, a termRefPointer can be used"

   sebastian: example: dt with href attribute

   <rahtz> example: We may define <term xml:id="TDPV"
   rend="sc">discoursal point of view</term>

   <rahtz> as <gloss target="#TDPV">the relationship, expressed through
   discourse

   <rahtz> structure, between the implied author or some other
   addresser,

   <rahtz> and the fiction.</gloss>

   <rahtz> We may define <term target="#TDPV">discoursal point of
   view</term>

   <rahtz> as <gloss xml:id="TDPV">the relationship, expressed through
   discourse

   <rahtz> structure, between the implied author or some other
   addresser,

   <rahtz> and the fiction.</gloss>

   summary of associating discussion: If you have semantics /
   processing expectations in the host vocabulary

   scribe: which are an addition to what ITS specifies, the assocation
   can be done

   christian: I am fine with what is informally described at
   [32]http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#d3e180

     [32] http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#d3e180

   yves: "Associating existing markup with ITS data categories can be
   only done if the processing expecations are the same
   ... or if the processing expecations of the host markup cover at
   least the same as ITS"

   <scribe> ACTION: editor change "Mapping of ITS Data Categories to
   Existing Markup" to "Associating ITS Data Categories with Existing
   Markup" [recorded in
   [33]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action10]

   <scribe> ACTION: editors to add Yves sentence about associating ITS
   with existing markup to sec
   [34]http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#purpose-mapping recorded in
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action11]

     [34] http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#purpose-mapping

   <rahtz> <its:termRule selector="//tei:term"
   termRefPointer="@target"/>

   felix: as for anyURI in the "ref" attributes, we can just say the
   types should be compatible
   ... as for XPath expressions in pointer attributes, we can say "the
   interpretation is the same as the non pointer functionality"

   sebastian: we need to make clear that all pointer attributes are
   relative XPath expressions

   <scribe> ACTION: editors to make clear that all pointer attributes
   are relative XPath expressions [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action12]

metadata for rules, see
[37]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3068

     [37] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3068

   sebastian: is rules an "island" in the host vocabulary, or is it
   interleaved. Goes back to the question on <rules>
   ... e.g. the question "who writes the rules?", or "how are they
   interleaving?"
   ... you are inventing a new markup language

   christian: I would like to see versioning information interleaved
   with the meta data
   ... I see a need for having meta data

   felix: what would you choose? SAP manual, TEI header, dublin core
   etc.?

   christian: we could use whatever you like, or we define at least a
   standardized set of meta data

   sebastian: should rules be part of meta data, or the other way
   around?

   felix: it would take a lot time to do this

   sebastian: we could describe as a technique "use dublin core for
   meta data"

   christian: putting a remark in the techniques document would be fine

   yves: what vocabulary would that be? ITS or s.t. else?

   christian: we could stay away from ITS, just say "use what you like"

   sebastian: if the rules are embedded within a bigger document, are
   they embedded within the ITS rules?

   christian: in the ITS rules

   sebastian: we have identification with xml:id, no need to invent
   that again
   ... is it o.k. to have <rules> as an island in another document? if
   that is possible, you could have all kinds of metadata in that
   ... we could say "it is good practice to have a time stamp on your
   file"
   ... and refer people to the techniques document

   yves: does it need to be in the ITS tagset draft or in the
   techniques document?

   sebastian: processing of the xlink attribute is like
   descendant-or-self in XPath

   <scribe> ACTION: editors to change example 13 to add meta data to it
   [recorded in
   [38]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action13]

Indicator of constraints

   yves: I would say "version 1.1"

[39]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3039 check
constraints of global rules

     [39] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3039

   sebastian: we could embedd these examples in the schema

   yves: is it possible to process this separatly?

   sebastian: yes

   christian: will we provide a web service for checking these
   constraints?

   felix: W3C has no resources for that :(

   <scribe> ACTION: Felix to write the constraints for pointer versus
   not pointer, to be implemented as schematron schema annotations,
   useable also separately [recorded in
   [40]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action14]

   yves: current consensus: wait for comments on the spec

proposal for grouping rules

   yves: this has been postponed to see if the get feedback from the
   public.

conformance section (again)

   "These conformance types are defined complementary. " -> "These
   conformance types complement each other. "

   "subsections in Section 6: Description of Data Categories": this
   must also talk about sec. 5

   "All local ITS attributes should be declared at all elements which
   are part of the schema."

   yves: why this?

   sebastian: if you have valid XML documents, you don't need this

   felix: this conformance level is for schema authors, without the
   instance document

   <chriLi> Could we look at
   [41]http://www.imsproject.org/metadata/mdbestv1p1.html#Conformance

     [41] http://www.imsproject.org/metadata/mdbestv1p1.html#Conformance

   yves: proposal: you have to implement one of the declarations:
   rules, at least one local attribute, ruby, span
   ... still have clause 1-1,3,4
   ... but not 1-2
   ... one additional clause / paragraph: an implementation which
   implements everything has "complete" markup declarations

   <chriLi> How about: A schema can fullfil one of two conformance
   levels: full or partial.

   <chriLi> Full conformance is defined as follows ... Partial
   conformance ...

   <chriLi> And have a note which explains the rationale and advantage.

   <chriLi> Ex. Advantage of partial conformance: Do not pollute ...

   <scribe> ACTION: do rewording of conformance sec. 4.1 together
   [recorded in
   [42]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action15]

   sebastian: section 4.2: "generated or validated relying on"->"valid
   against"

   yves: "element within text" should not include child elements

   <scribe> ACTION: editors to change default selection for "element
   within text" [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action16]

   <scribe> ACTION: editors to add a link to data category for
   conformance clause 2.3 [recorded in
   [44]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action17]

   christian: how about not slicing global versus local selection?

   yves: people might want to use only one of them

   "it must process all of the XLink href attributes found in the rules
   elements." -> "it must process an XLink href attribute found on a
   rules element"

   "Processing expecations are the information which are necessary to
   attach ITS information to one or more nodes in an XML document"

   (proposal by Christian / Sebastian)

   <chriLi> ITS markup allows information to be attached to XML nodes.
   Processors need to compute the information which is attached to an
   XML nodes (or set of nodes) correctlly.

   <chriLi> Addition: Correct computation especially involves support
   for selection mechanism, defaults, and precedence.

   summary: MUST for processing at least one data category, and then
   2-1 - 2-3 as a nested list

   christian: add a sentence to "description":
   ... "An implementation of a data category MUST (SHOULD?)make
   explicit what selection (global or local) it supports"

   <chriLi> selections _and_ data categories?

   yves: for each datacategory: say you support it or not, and say
   which selection you support

   sebastian: how would a conformance claim look like?
   ... each conformance claim MUST have a matrix about datacat
   (yes/no), selection global (yes , no), selection local (yes, no)

   <scribe> ACTION: editors to add xml:id attributes to all div
   elements (to avoid automatically generated id attributes) [recorded
   in [45]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action18]

integrate conformance discussion in the draft

   <scribe> ACTION: felix to clean up old change markup from the draft
   [recorded in
   [46]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action19]

   <scribe> ACTION: discuss change of "may" to "should" at The markup
   may be valid against a schema which is conform to the conformance
   clauses in Section 4.1: Conformance Type 1: ITS Markup Declarations.
   [recorded in
   [47]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action20]

   <scribe> ACTION: discuss moving the examples of ITS applications
   (editors etc.) in the conformance "normative" sub section [recorded
   in [48]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action21]

topics for tomorrow

   See if changes have been integrated properly.

   address [49]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2877

     [49] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2877

   [50]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3010

     [50] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3010

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: editors to add markup to "alt" [recorded in
   [51]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action04]
   [NEW] ACTION: all to make a better example for example 22 [recorded
   in [52]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action07]
   [NEW] ACTION: all to provide an example for termRefPointer for the
   draft [recorded in
   [53]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action08]
   [NEW] ACTION: discuss change of "may" to "should" at The markup may
   be valid against a schema which is conform to the conformance
   clauses in Section 4.1: Conformance Type 1: ITS Markup Declarations.
   [recorded in
   [54]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action20]
   [NEW] ACTION: discuss moving the examples of ITS applications
   (editors etc.) in the conformance "normative" sub section [recorded
   in [55]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action21]
   [NEW] ACTION: do rewording of conformance sec. 4.1 together
   [recorded in
   [56]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action15]
   [NEW] ACTION: editor change "Mapping of ITS Data Categories to
   Existing Markup" to "Associating ITS Data Categories with Existing
   Markup" [recorded in
   [57]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action10]
   [NEW] ACTION: editors to add a link to data category for conformance
   clause 2.3 [recorded in
   [58]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action17]
   [NEW] ACTION: editors to add xml:id attributes to all div elements
   (to avoid automatically generated id attributes) [recorded in
   [59]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action18]
   [NEW] ACTION: editors to add Yves sentence about associating ITS
   with existing markup to sec
   [60]http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#purpose-mapping recorded in
   [61]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action11]
   [NEW] ACTION: editors to change default selection for "element
   within text" [recorded in
   [62]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action16]
   [NEW] ACTION: editors to change example 13 to add meta data to it
   [recorded in
   [63]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action13]
   [NEW] ACTION: editors to implement Sebastians change for
   termRefPointer definition [recorded in
   [64]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action09]
   [NEW] ACTION: editors to make clear that all pointer attributes are
   relative XPath expressions [recorded in
   [65]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action12]
   [NEW] ACTION: editors to make conformance of ruby and directionality
   clearer (esp. with regard to processing of global rules) [recorded
   in [66]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: editors to repair [67]http://www.w3.org/1999/xlinkf to
   give the right namespace [recorded in
   [68]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: editors to repair numbering of conformance clauses in
   sec.
   [69]http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#conformance-product-processing-expecta
   tions [recorded in
   [70]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action05]
   [NEW] ACTION: editors to write a paragraph about relation of
   inclusion of external information (XInclude, DITA inclusion)versus
   ITS processing [recorded in
   [71]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: felix to clean up old change markup from the draft
   [recorded in
   [72]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action19]
   [NEW] ACTION: Felix to write the constraints for pointer versus not
   pointer, to be implemented as schematron schema annotations, useable
   also separately [recorded in
   [73]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action14]
   [NEW] ACTION: all to write examples of what a term is, and what it
   is used for [recorded in
   [74]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action06]

     [60] http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#purpose-mapping
     [67] http://www.w3.org/1999/xlinkf
     [69]
http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#conformance-product-processing-expectations

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


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