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Re: Localization Properties

From: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:40:33 +0900
To: "Lieske, Christian" <christian.lieske@sap.com>, public-i18n-its@w3.org
Message-ID: <op.s12ktvjox1753t@ibm-60d333fc0ec.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp>

Hi Christian,

I have to admit that I am lost in terminology ("directives" vs.  
"properties"). I propose to put the text into a wiki and to continue this  
very important discussion after the end-year break - with more  
participants:)

Regards, Felix.
On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 22:26:18 +0900, Lieske, Christian  
<christian.lieske@sap.com> wrote:

>
> Hi Felix,
>
> I can understand your confusion ... It's presumably based on the very
> question that the text tries to answer: How do we tell apart
> localization
> directives and localization properties?
>
> If I remember correctly, we indeed said "we will not do localization
> properties". However, from my understanding we also found that the
> approach/techniques we are developing might be used for localization
> properties.
>
> Our confusion might stem from the power of the approach/techniques
> we have already in place. Looking at a definition of localization
> directives and localization properties which Yves used a while ago
> (see http://www.w3.org/2002/02/01-i18n-workshop/Savourel.html) I see
> that we can cover both: vocabulary-level information and document-level
> annotiations (localization properties and localization directives in
> Yves' terms).
>
> Thus, we cannot use the vocabulary-level vs. document-level
> distinction.
>
> Your remark about the equivalency of in-situ and dislocated
> ITS information is correct.
>
> Thus, we cannot use the level of metadata as a distinction.
>
> The only distinction which thus remains is that between in-situ
> and dislocated ... If this distinction is not sufficient, we may
> not be able to postulate a diffence between directives and properties
> ...
>
> Best regards,
> Christian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Felix Sasaki [mailto:fsasaki@w3.org]
> Sent: Montag, 19. Dezember 2005 09:24
> To: Lieske, Christian; public-i18n-its@w3.org
> Subject: Re: Localization Properties
>
> Hi Christian,
>
> I am a little bit confused because I thought we would not do
> localization
> properties within the ITS tagset. Is this
> <its:documentRule translate="yes" translateSelect="//text"/>
> a localization property? Also, I see a problem with your definition
>
>> Localization properties can be realized in a number of ways and in a
>> number of places:
>>
>> 1. in a kind of header section in a certain content
>> 2. in a separate file associcated with a certain content or content
> type
>> 3. in a schema
>
> because "1. in a kind of header section in a certain content" can be
> constructed automatically from each in situ usage of ITS, e.g.
>
> <svg width="10cm" height="3cm" viewBox="0 0 1000 300"
>>      xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" version="1.1"
>> 	xmlns:its="http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its" >
>>     <text x="250" y="150" its:translate="yes">
>>     Hello, out there
>>   </text>
>>   <rect x="1" y="1" width="998" height="298"
>>         fill="none" stroke="blue" stroke-width="2" />
>> </svg>
>
> can be
> <its:documentRule its:translate="yes"
> its:translateSelect="/svg/text[1]"/>
> so I don't see that this is higher level metadata (as you wrote),
> compared
> to the in situ version. It is just a different place for the same
> information, and from in situ you can generate the dislocated version
> automatically, see "3.4 Mapping In Situ Scope to Dislocated Scope". Or
> do
> I miss something?
>
> Regards, Felix.
>
> On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 23:53:20 +0900, Lieske, Christian
> <christian.lieske@sap.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> During the F2F in Abingdon, I took away the action item to come up
> with
>> some text about "localization properties". Since we at least
>> brainstormed the idea of possibly contributing the text as a GEO FAQ,
> I
>> divided my proposal for this text (see below) into question and
> answer.
>> As you can see, I decided to tackle "localization directives" as well.
>> The reason for this is of course the intimate relationship that's
>> usually assumed for these two concepts/terms.
>>
>> Unfortunately, the plain text format in this mail did not allow me use
>> italics for some key terms such as 'in-situ'. Thus, I marked them with
>> double quotes.
>>
>> Looking forward to your feedback.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Christian
>> ---
>>
>> Question
>> ========
>> ========
>>
>> What do the terms 'localization directive' and 'localization property'
>> mean, and how are they related?
>>
>> Answer
>> ======
>> ======
>>
>> Everyone has their own preferred definitions for these terms. We
> provide
>> some general, high-level descriptions here of how we tend to use these
>> terms on the W3C Internationalization site. Both, localization
>> directives as well as localization properties are related to
>> standardized support for the internationalization (i18n) and
>> localization (l10n) of content. Although the examples in this document
>> are related to XML, the terms may be used in a non-XML setting as
> well.
>>
>> Localization Directive
>> ======================
>>
>> Any "in-situ" construct whose main purpose is "specific" support for
> the
>> internationalization (i18n) and localization (l10n) for a given,
>> specific "part of content". An example of a localization directive is
>> 'its:translate="yes"' in the following Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG)
>> instance:
>>
>> <?xml version="1.0" standalone="no"?>
>> <!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.1//EN"
>>   "http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11.dtd">
>> <svg width="10cm" height="3cm" viewBox="0 0 1000 300"
>>      xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" version="1.1"
>> 	xmlns:its="http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its" >
>>     <text x="250" y="150" its:translate="yes">
>>     Hello, out there
>>   </text>
>>   <rect x="1" y="1" width="998" height="298"
>>         fill="none" stroke="blue" stroke-width="2" />
>> </svg>
>>
>> 'its:translate="yes"' expresses that the content of the 'text' element
>> (textual content of element, including child elements, but excluding
>> attributes) should be translated. Since 'its:translate="yes"' appears
> in
>> the 'text' element, it is an "in-situ" construct. Since
>> 'its:translate="yes"' only pertains to a specific 'text' element, it
>> only provides "specific" localization support for a given, specific
>> "part of content". 'xml:lang' can be considered as a localization
>> directive.
>>
>> Localization Property
>> =====================
>>
>> Any "dislocated" construct whose main purpose is "general" support for
>> the internationalization (i18n) and localization (l10n) of a given,
>> specific "content type". An example of a localization property is
>> 'its:translate="yes"' in the following XML snippet:
>>
>> <its:documentRule translate="yes" translateSelect="//text"/>
>>
>> This snippet expresses that the content of all 'text' elements
> (textual
>> content of element, including child elements, but excluding
> attributes)
>> of a certain content type should be translated. Since the snippet does
>> not appear in a specific 'text' element, it is a "dislocated"
> construct.
>> Since it pertains to all 'text' elements, it provides "general"
>> localization support for a given, specific "content type".
>>
>> Localization properties can be realized in a number of ways and in a
>> number of places:
>>
>> 1. in a kind of header section in a certain content
>> 2. in a separate file associcated with a certain content or content
> type
>> 3. in a schema
>>
>> In a sense, localization properties provide high-level general meta
> data
>> which can provide valuable information for i18n or l10n processes(e.g.
>> configure localization tools automatically similar to a setting or
>> initialization file). Localization directives, on the other hand,
>> provide lower-level meta data (and for example override meta data
>> provided by means of localization properties).
>>
>> Further Reading
>> ===============
>> ===============
>>
>> Internationalization Tag Set (ITS) http://www.w3.org/TR/its/
>>
>
>
>
Received on Tuesday, 20 December 2005 06:42:42 UTC

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