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Re: CAM

From: Andrzej Zydron <azydron@xml-intl.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:50:56 +0100
Message-ID: <42B15990.5010304@xml-intl.com>
CC: public-i18n-its@w3.org

Hi Felix,

Felix Sasaki wrote:
> Hi Andrzei,
> 
> I would propose then that we have a reference to CAM in the paper, 
> that's it. If there is a stable implementation later, we can make more 
> use of CAM in the recommendation.

Agreed!

Best Regards,

AZ

> Best, Felix.
> 
> Andrzej Zydron wrote:
> 
>>
>> Hi Felix,
>>
>> Felix Sasaki wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Andrej,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the links, I already had a look in the PDF and the PPT 
>>> before I wrote the mail to you.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> CAM is not just about NOUN definitions. CAM can define 
>>>> BusinessUseContext rules, DataValidations, ContentReference rules as 
>>>> well as Assembly structures. All very powerful and flexible.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I saw the mechanisms you're mentioning, also the list of predicates 
>>> you pointed me to. I'm just not sure of the interplay between all 
>>> these. I also had a look at the CAM specification
>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/5914/OASIS-CAM-Specifications-1_0-RC-017C-021904.doc 
>>>
>>> But it didn't make things clearer to me.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes - it is not the most clear documentation in the world!
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> My current understanding (still incomplete) of CAM is that it should 
>>>> provide a sufficient vocabulary 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is it a vocabulary? or rather a set of predicates with some 
>>> processing directives?
>>
>>
>>
>> You are correct - it is about predicates and processing instructions
>>
>>
>>>> to be able to describe semantically the requirements for 
>>>> http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0505Translatability, 
>>>> http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0505ReqAttrAndTrans, 
>>>> http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0505WordCount and possibly provide a 
>>>> mechanism for http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0505LimitImpact. It would 
>>>> do this via an external CAM XML definition document that would be 
>>>> applicable to a given DTD/XSD type, and/or individual document 
>>>> instance. This decouples the problem of an ITS tag set for the above 
>>>> topics from embedding and the intendant problems.
>>>>
>>> I'm just worried about the mass of problems CAM seems to try to solve 
>>> at the same time. Could you come up with an example, as simple as 
>>> possible? E.g. you have an XHTML document like
>>
>>
>>
>> This may be the main problem with CAM - its implementation is also 
>> predicated on the existence of a CAM processor, which may be the main 
>> mitigating factor against its use. There is a SourceForge site for a 
>> Java implementation of CAM:
>> http://sourceforge.net/projects/camprocessor but it is still at alpha 
>> stage. Without a standard freely available CAM processor, the 
>> specification is not really usable.
>>
>>
>>> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>> xmlns:its="http://www.example.org/its" xml:lang="en" lang="en"
>>> its:translate="yes">
>>> <head><title its:translate="no">World News - 2 May 2005</title>
>>>  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"/>
>>> </head>
>>> <body>
>>>  <h1 its:translate="no">World News - 2 May 2005</h1> ...
>>>  <p><its:span lofinfo="this needs special treatment">...</its:span></p>
>>> </body>
>>> </html>
>>>
>>> and you want to validate it against an DTD for XHTML, and you have a 
>>> XSLT stylesheet which relies on a <p> element without child elements 
>>> from another namespace than "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml". How would 
>>> you describe validation and XSLT transformation processes with CAM? 
>>> It would be great to have such an example, so that we also could use 
>>> if for the EXTREME article.
>>
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately my knowledge of CAM is woefully insufficient to be able 
>> to provide an example!
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> AZ
>>
>>> Best, Felix.
>>>
>>>> I need to spend a lot more time with CAM before I could say for 
>>>> certain whether it would be a viable solution, but there appear to 
>>>> be some very good things within the CAM specification that are worth 
>>>> investigating further.
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>
>>>> AZ
>>>>
>>>> Felix Sasaki wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Andrzej,
>>>>>
>>>>> I had a look at CAM [1] which you talked about yesterday at the 
>>>>> telecon. It seems to be that it CAM is made for the augmentation of 
>>>>> schemas with additional information. One kind of information can be 
>>>>> used to describe the relations of element and attribute names from 
>>>>> different namespaces to an external knowledge base of names, in the 
>>>>> CAM terminology "nouns". I'm not sure if that solves our problems, 
>>>>> for example to avoid impact of ITS on existing markup schemes and 
>>>>> documents, e.g. problems with XPath etc. What we need is a way to 
>>>>> describe the relations of markup A from namespace to markup from 
>>>>> namespace B, to be able to say s.t. "For this processing step,  
>>>>> IMAGINE that <html:span> is equal to <its:span>." With CAM, this 
>>>>> seems to be possible through the "nouns" knowledge base, and there 
>>>>> seems to be no mechanism to process "IMAGINE". Also it seems that 
>>>>> there is not very much happening in the TC, the spec. was from 
>>>>> 2004, and i didn't found many implemenations / applications.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just had a quick look into this, so maybe my impression is wrong 
>>>>> that this doesn't solve our problems. What do you think? Do you 
>>>>> have more material?
>>>>>
>>>>> Best, Felix.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] /www.*oasis*-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=*cam*/
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 


-- 


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Received on Thursday, 16 June 2005 10:51:03 GMT

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