- From: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
- Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 18:26:09 +0200
- To: public-i18n-its-ig <public-i18n-its-ig@w3.org>
See
http://www.w3.org/2014/10/20-i18nits-minutes.html
and below as text. Note: next call will be 10 November *4 p.m. UTC* (due to time zone changes)
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20141110T16
Main topic will be again the xliff mapping.
- Felix
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
its ig
20 Oct 2014
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014Oct/0032.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2014/10/20-i18nits-irc
Attendees
Present
christian, yves, david, renat, felix
Regrets
Chair
SV_MEETING_CHAIR
Scribe
fsasaki
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]action items
2. [6]XLIFF 2.0 mapping
3. [7]testing output
4. [8]rules file
5. [9]way to describe the transformations
6. [10]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-it
s-ig/2014Oct/0034.html
7. [11]next call
* [12]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
[13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014
Oct/0032.html
[13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014Oct/0032.html
<scribe> scribe: fsasaki
action items
[14]http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/track/actions/open
[14] http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/track/actions/open
[15]http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/track/actions/open?s
ort=due
[15] http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/track/actions/open?sort=due
XLIFF 2.0 mapping
[16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014
Oct/0006.html
[16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014Oct/0006.html
"ITS scope with sm/em"
yves: issue is: in XLIFF you can markup things with starting
and ending empty elements
... these are used as marker
... content is not XML well formed content but between related
elements
... they are related through semantics, not syntax
... they can be converted to mrk
... issue is: in ITS we cannot describe that relation
... e.g. if "sm" has ITS information, the information woud
apply to empty content
... Fredrik and Felix provided ways to solve the problem
... by reducing numbers of sm and em,
... but there would still be some cases
... in case in which things are overlaped
... this cannot resolved with ITS
... this is similar to NIF were we can have overlap as well
... so ITS cannot handle everything
... we can migate 98% of the case with transformation
david: fundamental issue
... richard / felix sometimes say that ITS is an abstract set
of data categories
... so far tech. has only been defined for XML and HTML
... these have the limitations that Yves described
... I agree that you can define simplification to reduce the
number of spans that will be marked with empty markers, in
XLIFF or other formats
... this does not solve the fundamental issue
... you can clash with structural XLIFF markup and so on
... not quite sure what the value of the exercise is
... of trying to reduce the number of sm / em marked spans
... if you start in a perfect value html / xml you can add ITS
value
... you can't end up with spans that won't be possible to be
marked in the right way
... don't think that there is a solution
... you cannot enforce wellformed spans
... so all external ITS processors will be at loss
yves: that type of issue applies only for em / sm that you
cannot split into separate mrks
... e.g. for "translate" you can split things up in several
mrks
... the issue is with "terminology" or "text analysis" where
you cannot split up things
david: if the wellformed format has the requirements then we
can convert that
yves: this is a problem, not a major problem. it is a problem
on the ITS representaiton. shoudl not stop us for using sm / em
... not a showstopper for the mapping
david: agre
... it is a limitatino what a generic ITS processor can do
... another reason for having separate XLIFF namespaces
christian: a few points: first, general issue of XML contraints
... what is the viewpoint of researchers on the overlap issue?
... second, we are looking at xliff
... the observation we have may have some impact on the future
version of xliff
... maybe we find that sm / em is not the only approach - again
an insight based on overlap research
... third - being able to cover 98%, like yves said
... we could also say: for certain flavours of XLIFF you are
ok, for others you have certain constraints
... that may call for a special variant of xliff
... e.g. variant X of xliff: OK, variant Y: may have issues
renat: want to add some comments on overlap aspect
... in xliff 2.0 there will be several modules
... e.g. a specific module for ITS metadata
... is that so?
... then we could resolve the scenario if we split overlapping
pieces of metadata between different instances of target text
david: useful to look at theoretical options from TEI
[see TEI options here
[17]http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/NH.html
]
[17] http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/NH.html
david: multiple instances was used in 1.2
... it was abandoned in XLIFF 2.0
... standoff markup is another option
... but also has issues
... agree with Yves, there is no problem on the XLIFF side
... the problem occurs during conversion to a format that has
wellformedness requirements
... a comment on what christian said about XLIFF flavours:
... wellformed spans are interconvertable with non-wellformed
spans
... that is true for annotation and quote markers
... there is a way to reduce the number of non wellformed spans
... you could define types of content that works with the
reduction and overs that does not
[18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014
Oct/0033.html
[18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014Oct/0033.html
felix: next step would be to do some tests with the conversion,
see yves' mail
<scribe> ACTION: felix to work on overlap example and to do
conversion [recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2014/10/20-i18nits-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-53 - Work on overlap example and to
do conversion [on Felix Sasaki - due 2014-10-27].
yves: things to be done:
... coming up wtih rules for processing the mapping
... using also an ITS processor
... output would be similar to the test output we generate
... but we need also to come up to process the file with an
XLIFF processor
... but I don't have a format for that
testing output
[20]https://www.w3.org/International/its/wiki/XLIFF_2.0_Mapping
#General_implementation_and_testing_considerations
[20] https://www.w3.org/International/its/wiki/XLIFF_2.0_Mapping#General_implementation_and_testing_considerations
yves: for XLIFF output, testing:
... every single element for which we can apply ITS
... all ements have IDs
... so we can generate an XLIFF location of the node
... instead of using XPath, using the XLIFF IDs
... most of the xliff processors should be able to process that
felix: would one need to take the scope of the ID into account?
yves: good point
... technically you are testing only if the value of the ITS
information is correct
... applying the scope is only an XLIFF problem
... the tests for the ITS module don't need to test the scope
david: still the same issue
... the scope of the IDs can be non-wellformed
<scribe> ACTION: yves to try to come up with example of
xliff+its test format / output [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2014/10/20-i18nits-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-54 - Try to come up with example of
xliff+its test format / output [on Yves Savourel - due
2014-10-27].
rules file
[22]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014
Oct/0000.html
[22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014Oct/0000.html
felix: discussion on xliff namespace - semantic of attribute
would affect spans
david: would affect also xliff
... so makes sense to have the namespace xliff hosted
christian: need to be clear what the issues is and to see where
we have the issue: in xliff or its or both
[23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014
Oct/0023.html
[23] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014Oct/0023.html
[24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014
Oct/0024.html
[24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014Oct/0024.html
<dF>
[25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/URNsAndRegistries-50.html
[25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/URNsAndRegistries-50.html
yves: processing is fine for ITS processor, to do extra
processing before it processes it
... if it is well defined
... e.g. having an XSLT that does it back and forth
... it is a limitation too because you cannot use an XLIFF file
with an ITS processor
... for me it is something marginal - in most of the cases it
will be with an XLIFF processor, not an ITS processor
felix: agree
david: above links explains differrent approaches to namespaces
in w3c and osasis - w3c uses http uris, osasis uses urn
... xliff syntax expects urn type uri, not http type of uri
... another good reason to have oasis hosted namespace
yves: advantage of not using directly ITS namespace:
... in some cases we will need to add attributes
... e.g. ITS does not define a local "domain"
... you need that at XLIFF
... we have only a global marker in ITS
david: that was the primary reason to use the additional
namespace
yves: exactly
... that allows you to put together all attributes in the
mapping
... validation is then easier
... there is one case with pre- and post-processing of the file
... we don't have a way to map "tools information"
... there is no way to map tools info in XLIFF and map that
into ITS
... which is ok since we have a preprocessing step
way to describe the transformations
idea to have an algorithm and implement that in differnet ways:
xslt and others
<dF> I agree that the algorithm should be defined independently
[26]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014Oct/00
34.html
[26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014Oct/0034.html
Provenance and Change Track Module
<dF> still will need the xslt example
action-9?
<trackbot> action-9 -- David Lewis to Look at the XLIFF 2.0
change tracking module for provenance -- due 2014-05-30 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[27]http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/track/actions/9
[27] http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/track/actions/9
<dF> and preferably at least one more
yves: we thought about this before, but did not address this
yet
david: not very clear what the relation is
yves: you could end up with conflicts - which one is right?
david: one could use ctr for historical provenance
... current provenance on core elements should be encoded using
the ITS module
christian: sounds like a new concept / terminology
... "historical provenance"
... we need to define this properly
david: purpose of change track is to be able to tell who made
change
next call
10 november
adjourned
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: felix to work on overlap example and to do
conversion [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2014/10/20-i18nits-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: yves to try to come up with example of xliff+its
test format / output [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2014/10/20-i18nits-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [30]scribe.perl version
1.138 ([31]CVS log)
$Date: 2014-10-20 16:02:00 $
__________________________________________________________
[30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[31] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
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[32] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Found Scribe: fsasaki
Inferring ScribeNick: fsasaki
Present: christian yves david renat felix
Agenda: [33]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014O
ct/0032.html
[33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014Oct/0032.html
WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth
Got date from IRC log name: 20 Oct 2014
Guessing minutes URL: [34]http://www.w3.org/2014/10/20-i18nits-minutes.h
tml
People with action items: felix yves
[34] http://www.w3.org/2014/10/20-i18nits-minutes.html
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[35] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
Received on Monday, 20 October 2014 16:26:46 UTC