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Re: [WCAG2 TECHS] i18n comment 1: H34 example source direction

From: Loretta Guarino Reid <lorettaguarino@google.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 15:39:45 -0800
Message-ID: <824e742c0802071539m313d29f0t725d49d80a281f00@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Richard Ishida" <ishida@w3.org>
Cc: public-comments-wcag20@w3.org, public-i18n-core@w3.org

We have updated the technique per your suggestions. Thank you for your help.

The updated technique can be found at
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20071218/H34.html

We would appreciate knowing if there are still problems.

Regards,

Loretta Guarino Reid, WCAG WG Co-Chair
Gregg Vanderheiden, WCAG WG Co-Chair
Michael Cooper, WCAG WG Staff Contact

On behalf of the WCAG Working Group


On Nov 16, 2007 9:30 AM, Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org> wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, there are still some significant problems with this
> technique.
>
> [1] "Unicode right-to-left marks and left-to-right marks can be entered
> directly or by means of entities. The character entities for these markers
> are"
>
> It would be better to say 'character entity' than 'entity' in the first
> sentence.  Also character entities and numeric character references are
> different things, so I suggest you say
>
> "Unicode right-to-left marks and left-to-right marks can be entered directly
> or by means of character entities or numeric character references, as shown
> here"
>
> (Note also that the Character Model for the WWW recommends the use of hex
> NCRs, though I'm not going to insist on that here.)
>
>
>
> [2] "Inserting a Unicode right-to-left mark (in this case via the HTML
> character entity &#8207;)"
>
> That's an NCR, not a character entity.  In the example, however, you use
> &rlm; (which *is* a character entity), rather than &#8207.
>
>
>
> [3] The shaded example of code is quite confusing, since it suffers from the
> very problem you are describing - ie. you haven't used an &rlm! ;-)  The
> Arabic runs right to left, but the colon and &rlm; are still on the right.
> This is a typical problem with trying to represent bidi source text
> examples, and it's why I try to avoid them whenever possible.
>
> One way around this is to say "Here is the text *ordered left-to-right in
> the sequence you would find in memory or type the text in the editor*" and
> apply a <bdo dir="ltr" to the pre element.  That would look better with
> Hebrew, since the Arabic will still try to join up.
>
> To make this easier for you, I created the example for you, in Hebrew at
> http://www.www.org/International/2007/11/wai-examples.html (cut and paste
> the source text).
>
> On the other hand I strongly recommend that you drop the source code
> example, and explain things as I have under "Proposed alternative" in the
> same file.
>
> RI
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ============
> Richard Ishida
> Internationalization Lead
> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
>
> http://www.w3.org/International/
> http://rishida.net/blog/
> http://rishida.net/
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: public-i18n-core-request@w3.org
> > [mailto:public-i18n-core-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Richard Ishida
> > Sent: 16 November 2007 15:43
> > To: public-i18n-core@w3.org
> > Subject: [WCAG2 TECHS] i18n comment 1: H34 example source direction
> >
> >
> >  -----Original Message-----
> >  From: Loretta Guarino Reid [mailto:lorettaguarino@google.com]
> >  Sent: 04 November 2007 05:09
> >  To: Richard Ishida
> >  Cc: public-comments-WCAG20@w3.org
> >  Subject: Your comments on WCAG 2.0 Public Working Draft of May, 2007
> >
> >   -----Original Message-----
> >   From: Loretta Guarino Reid [mailto:lorettaguarino@google.com]
> >   Sent: 04 November 2007 05:09
> >  ...
> >   Please review our resolutions for the following comments,
> > and reply to  us by 19 November 2007 at
> > public-comments-wcag20@w3.org to say whether  you are
> > satisfied. Note that this list is publicly archived.
> >  ...
> >   WCAG 2.0 Editor's Draft of May-October 2007 at
> > http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-20071102/
> >
> >  ...
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > > Comment 6: H34: (example 1) describe that the is placed
> > > immediately alongside the exclamation mark
> > > Source:
> > > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-comments-wcag20/200
> > 7Jun/0042.html
> > > (Issue ID: 1964)
> > > ----------------------------
> > > Original Comment:
> > > ----------------------------
> > >
> > > Comment from the i18n review of:
> > > http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/
> > >
> > > Comment 1
> > > At http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0706-wcag2-techniques/
> > > Editorial/substantive: E
> > > Owner: RI
> > >
> > > Location in reviewed document:
> > >
> > > H34
> > >
> > [http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/Overview.html#H34]
> > >
> > > Comment:
> > > The example of source code is problematic, since it assumes a
> > > particular behaviour on the part of the authoring tool (see
> > > the discussion on this at
> > >
> > http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-bidi.html#d2e277 ).
> > >
> > > I would recommend just describing that the is placed
> > > immediately alongside the exclamation mark, and showing
> > > before and after examples of the displayed text, as in
> > > http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-bidi.html#r
> > i20030726.140315918
> > >
> > > Note, also, that for people to appreciate the examples, their
> > > user agent needs to support bidi text display and Arabic
> > > fonts. This is why I am providing a pseudo-arabic version of
> > > the example in our best practices doc.
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------
> > > Response from Working Group:
> > > ---------------------------------------------
> > >
> >  Response:
> >  Thank you for helping us improve this technique and its
> >  example. We have made the following changes:
> >
> >  * add to Description (before "The character entities for
> > these markers
> >  are..."): "Unicode right-to-left marks and left-to-right
> >  marks can be entered directly or by means of entities."
> >
> >  * change order of numeric character entities and named
> >  character entities in the list at the end of the Description.
> >
> >  * add after this list: "Due to the bidi algorithm, a source
> >  code editor may not display character entities as expected."
> >
> >  * add "Problems with bidirectional source text"
> >  (http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-bidi.html#d2e277)
> >  to related resources.
> >
> >  * change last sentence above example to :"Inserting a Unicode
> >  right-to-left mark (in this case via the HTML character entity)...
> >
> >  * replace named character entity with numeric character
> >  entity in code  of Example 1.
> >
> >  * copy the visual ASCII example from
> >  http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-bidi/#ri20030218.135304584
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Received on Thursday, 7 February 2008 23:40:02 GMT

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