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RE: [WCAG2 TECHS] i18n comment 1: H34 example source direction

From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:01:44 -0000
To: "'Loretta Guarino Reid'" <lorettaguarino@google.com>
Cc: <public-comments-wcag20@w3.org>, <public-i18n-core@w3.org>
Message-ID: <009401c890fd$c8bdb2a0$5a3917e0$@org>

Hello Loretta,

After recent changes, the i18n WG is now satisfied with the response to this
comment.

Many thanks,
RI

============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
 
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://rishida.net/blog/
http://rishida.net/

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Loretta Guarino Reid [mailto:lorettaguarino@google.com]
> Sent: 07 February 2008 23:40
> To: Richard Ishida
> Cc: public-comments-wcag20@w3.org; public-i18n-core@w3.org
> Subject: Re: [WCAG2 TECHS] i18n comment 1: H34 example source direction
> 
> We have updated the technique per your suggestions. Thank you for your
help.
> 
> The updated technique can be found at
> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20071218/H34.html
> 
> We would appreciate knowing if there are still problems.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Loretta Guarino Reid, WCAG WG Co-Chair
> Gregg Vanderheiden, WCAG WG Co-Chair
> Michael Cooper, WCAG WG Staff Contact
> 
> On behalf of the WCAG Working Group
> 
> 
> On Nov 16, 2007 9:30 AM, Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org> wrote:
> >
> > Unfortunately, there are still some significant problems with this
> > technique.
> >
> > [1] "Unicode right-to-left marks and left-to-right marks can be entered
> > directly or by means of entities. The character entities for these
markers
> > are"
> >
> > It would be better to say 'character entity' than 'entity' in the first
> > sentence.  Also character entities and numeric character references are
> > different things, so I suggest you say
> >
> > "Unicode right-to-left marks and left-to-right marks can be entered
directly
> > or by means of character entities or numeric character references, as
shown
> > here"
> >
> > (Note also that the Character Model for the WWW recommends the use of
hex
> > NCRs, though I'm not going to insist on that here.)
> >
> >
> >
> > [2] "Inserting a Unicode right-to-left mark (in this case via the HTML
> > character entity &#8207;)"
> >
> > That's an NCR, not a character entity.  In the example, however, you use
> > &rlm; (which *is* a character entity), rather than &#8207.
> >
> >
> >
> > [3] The shaded example of code is quite confusing, since it suffers from
the
> > very problem you are describing - ie. you haven't used an &rlm! ;-)  The
> > Arabic runs right to left, but the colon and &rlm; are still on the
right.
> > This is a typical problem with trying to represent bidi source text
> > examples, and it's why I try to avoid them whenever possible.
> >
> > One way around this is to say "Here is the text *ordered left-to-right
in
> > the sequence you would find in memory or type the text in the editor*"
and
> > apply a <bdo dir="ltr" to the pre element.  That would look better with
> > Hebrew, since the Arabic will still try to join up.
> >
> > To make this easier for you, I created the example for you, in Hebrew at
> > http://www.www.org/International/2007/11/wai-examples.html (cut and
paste
> > the source text).
> >
> > On the other hand I strongly recommend that you drop the source code
> > example, and explain things as I have under "Proposed alternative" in
the
> > same file.
> >
> > RI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ============
> > Richard Ishida
> > Internationalization Lead
> > W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
> >
> > http://www.w3.org/International/
> > http://rishida.net/blog/
> > http://rishida.net/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: public-i18n-core-request@w3.org
> > > [mailto:public-i18n-core-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Richard Ishida
> > > Sent: 16 November 2007 15:43
> > > To: public-i18n-core@w3.org
> > > Subject: [WCAG2 TECHS] i18n comment 1: H34 example source direction
> > >
> > >
> > >  -----Original Message-----
> > >  From: Loretta Guarino Reid [mailto:lorettaguarino@google.com]
> > >  Sent: 04 November 2007 05:09
> > >  To: Richard Ishida
> > >  Cc: public-comments-WCAG20@w3.org
> > >  Subject: Your comments on WCAG 2.0 Public Working Draft of May, 2007
> > >
> > >   -----Original Message-----
> > >   From: Loretta Guarino Reid [mailto:lorettaguarino@google.com]
> > >   Sent: 04 November 2007 05:09
> > >  ...
> > >   Please review our resolutions for the following comments,
> > > and reply to  us by 19 November 2007 at
> > > public-comments-wcag20@w3.org to say whether  you are
> > > satisfied. Note that this list is publicly archived.
> > >  ...
> > >   WCAG 2.0 Editor's Draft of May-October 2007 at
> > > http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-20071102/
> > >
> > >  ...
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Comment 6: H34: (example 1) describe that the is placed
> > > > immediately alongside the exclamation mark
> > > > Source:
> > > > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-comments-wcag20/200
> > > 7Jun/0042.html
> > > > (Issue ID: 1964)
> > > > ----------------------------
> > > > Original Comment:
> > > > ----------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Comment from the i18n review of:
> > > > http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20070517/
> > > >
> > > > Comment 1
> > > > At http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0706-wcag2-techniques/
> > > > Editorial/substantive: E
> > > > Owner: RI
> > > >
> > > > Location in reviewed document:
> > > >
> > > > H34
> > > >
> > > [http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-
> 20070517/Overview.html#H34]
> > > >
> > > > Comment:
> > > > The example of source code is problematic, since it assumes a
> > > > particular behaviour on the part of the authoring tool (see
> > > > the discussion on this at
> > > >
> > > http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-bidi.html#d2e277 ).
> > > >
> > > > I would recommend just describing that the is placed
> > > > immediately alongside the exclamation mark, and showing
> > > > before and after examples of the displayed text, as in
> > > > http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-bidi.html#r
> > > i20030726.140315918
> > > >
> > > > Note, also, that for people to appreciate the examples, their
> > > > user agent needs to support bidi text display and Arabic
> > > > fonts. This is why I am providing a pseudo-arabic version of
> > > > the example in our best practices doc.
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------
> > > > Response from Working Group:
> > > > ---------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > >  Response:
> > >  Thank you for helping us improve this technique and its
> > >  example. We have made the following changes:
> > >
> > >  * add to Description (before "The character entities for
> > > these markers
> > >  are..."): "Unicode right-to-left marks and left-to-right
> > >  marks can be entered directly or by means of entities."
> > >
> > >  * change order of numeric character entities and named
> > >  character entities in the list at the end of the Description.
> > >
> > >  * add after this list: "Due to the bidi algorithm, a source
> > >  code editor may not display character entities as expected."
> > >
> > >  * add "Problems with bidirectional source text"
> > >  (http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-bidi.html#d2e277)
> > >  to related resources.
> > >
> > >  * change last sentence above example to :"Inserting a Unicode
> > >  right-to-left mark (in this case via the HTML character entity)...
> > >
> > >  * replace named character entity with numeric character
> > >  entity in code  of Example 1.
> > >
> > >  * copy the visual ASCII example from
> > >  http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-bidi/#ri20030218.135304584
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
Received on Friday, 28 March 2008 18:01:54 GMT

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