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[I18N Core] Semi-expurgated Minutes: 2005-01-25 Teleconference

From: Addison Phillips [wM] <aphillips@webmethods.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:10:40 -0800
To: <public-i18n-core@w3.org>
Cc: <w3c-i18n-ig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <PNEHIBAMBMLHDMJDDFLHKEABJCAA.aphillips@webmethods.com>

Attendees: Addison (chair), François (scribe), Richard, Martin, Mary
Regrets: Tex

Accumulated Actions:

All: be sure to sign up again. Contact Richard or Martin if you have problems locating or tormenting your AC Rep
AP: Update Radard
AP: Send list of current outstanding reviews
MD: talk to Masayasu about his comment
RI: Update XHTML 2.0 comments and deliver (thanks Richard)
AP: Compose and forward to internal list response to SVG comments.


Session Start (irc.w3.org:#i18n): Tue Jan 25 13:58:06 2005
<Zakim> ok, r12a-scribe; I see I18N_WG(core tf)5:00PM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
<Zakim> I18N_WG(core tf)5:00PM has now started

<apphillips> Item 0: the weather, globally 

<apphillips> A pointer is on /International/core for "how to join" 

<apphillips> 1. Action Items (5 minutes) 
<apphillips>     see below. 
<apphillips> 1. MD: talk to Masayasu about his CharMod comment 
<apphillips> 2. RI: perform approved edits of XHTML comments 
<fyergeau> 1. is ongoing
<apphillips> (discussion: missing some notes about a call in Boston) 
<fyergeau> 2. is partly done, missing some notes
<apphillips> 1. AP/chair: Update Review Radar 
<apphillips> 2. MD: send Addison the old status materials so this section has more stuff in it (done) 
<fyergeau> 1. not done this week, new reviews appeared this week

<r12a> i realise there wasn't a link to the appropriate form on the page i pointed you to - here is the link (Link: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/ieapp/)

<apphillips> 2. Announcements (5 minutes) 
<apphillips>    item: recruiting, sign-up, and membership trivia 
<apphillips>    item: Review Radar items 
<apphillips> action: AP to send list of current review requests 

<apphillips> 3. XHTML 2.0 LC Comments (20 minutes) 
<fyergeau> Richard's Draft Comments: (Link: http://www.w3.org/International/2004/10/xhtml2-review)http://www.w3.org/International/2004/10/xhtml2-review
<apphillips> (Link: http://www.w3.org/International/2004/10/xhtml2-i18n-review.html)http://www.w3.org/International/2004/10/xhtml2-i18n-review.html 
<apphillips> Starting with item 40 
<apphillips> You would only need to use the dir attribute on the p element in a rtl context. It would be better to omit it here and to simply state that the default directionality for this text is ltr. We encounter many people who add dir's to almost all the block elements in a file, when a single declaration on the html tag would suffice. I don't want to encourage such behaviour, since it is unnecessary and detrimental. 
<apphillips> (Link: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-xhtml2-20040722/)http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-xhtml2-20040722/ 
<apphillips> (Link: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-xhtml2-20040722/mod-bidi.html#sec_15.1.1.)http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-xhtml2-20040722/mod-bidi.html#sec_15.1.1. 
<fyergeau> Martin: ltr needed if overall direction set to rtl higher up
<fyergeau> Addison suggests a note
<fyergeau> Richard suggests an image to show the Hebrew chars as they are input
<fyergeau> Discussion oabout whether it's appropriate to point to CSS for meaning
<apphillips> --- 
<apphillips> 41 
<apphillips> It is not at all obvious to the uninitiated reader what the effect of the lro attribute would be unless you show the resulting displayed text. (This is a tricky area to show examples ;) 
<apphillips> (give examples) 
<apphillips> --- 
<apphillips> 42:       
<apphillips> The attribute name datetime is rather unspecific, given that it can appear on any element. I would prefer editdatetime. 
<fyergeau> Martin: should use only the variant of XML Schema's datetime *with* time zone info
<MJDuerst> or alternatively, limit to only one timezone (Z)
<apphillips> XML Schema "dateTime" does not require a timezone. 
<apphillips> (which is bad) 
<apphillips> (because lack of time zone is defined as local time, which generally changes the value) 
<fyergeau> datetime defined in 5.5, apparently from XHTML Mod but missing a link to it
<apphillips> -- 
<apphillips> 43 
<apphillips> Several problems with this example:  
<apphillips>    1. There is inconsistency in the use of English vs translated (French) labels. This should not be the case. The question is, which should it be. It depends to some extent on how the information will be displayed, and who the intended reader is. I think it probably should be in foreign languages.  
<apphillips>    2. For the Dutch manual, xml:lang="du" is wrong. Either translate the text to Dutch, or change xml:lang to hreflang. Or translate and add hreflang. Same goes for Portuguese and Arabic.  
<apphillips>    3. The French should not use an entity to represent the ç  
<apphillips> your comment says "du". The example is (correctly) "nl" 
<apphillips> In its simplest case, this is just a language code, such as "nl", but it may also contain variant specifications such as "en-gb". 

<apphillips> item about hreflang at (Link: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-xhtml2-20040722/mod-hyperAttributes.html#s_hyperAttributesmodule)http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-xhtml2-20040722/mod-hyperAttributes.html#s_hyperAttributesmodule is somewhat in need of comments 
<MJDuerst> second para of hreflang is just examples, informational, but this isn't clear
<r12a> is it an assertion of the language of the target doc, or intended for accept-lang?
<apphillips> clarify if hreflang is an assertion of language or just as the accept value 
<fyergeau> hreflang should also be allowed when resource attr. is present on <link>, not only when href is present
<apphillips> action: RI: study and propose comment  
<apphillips> +1 FY's comment 
<apphillips> adopted all three parts 
<apphillips> --- 
<apphillips> 44 
<apphillips> Again, the title is used for a role specific to this element, and contains user readable text that might need to be marked up for directionality, language, translation id, etc (especially given the context of usage). Does the link element have to be empty? Could it not include this text as content? 
<apphillips> <link media="print"  
<apphillips>       title="The manual in PostScript" 
<apphillips>       restype="application/postscript" 
<apphillips>       rel="alternate" 
<apphillips>       resource="(Link: http://example.com/manual/postscript.ps)http://example.com/manual/postscript.ps"/> 
<fyergeau> Approved
<apphillips> -- 
<apphillips> 45 
<apphillips> approved 
<apphillips> -- 
<apphillips> 46       
<apphillips> charset: Could this be called 'encoding'? 
<apphillips> should indicate priority 
<fyergeau> "Please consult the section on character encodings for more details."  Needs pointer to said section
<apphillips> (charset attr vs. http vs. content) 
<apphillips> -- 
<MJDuerst> this 'charset' attribute should be clear about the fact that if there is charset information associated to the resource retreived, then that information has precedence, i.e. the 'charset' attribute on script is only advisory (see relevant TAG finding)
<apphillips> adopted 46 
<fyergeau> ---
<fyergeau> 47
<apphillips> It says "Please consult the section on character encodings for more details.", but I wasn't sure which section that was referring to. 
<apphillips> +1 on 47 
<apphillips> adopted- 
<apphillips> --- 
<apphillips> 48 
<apphillips> adopted 
<apphillips> --- 
<apphillips> 49 general non-i18n comment 
<apphillips> -- 
<apphillips> 50       
<apphillips> Suggested rewording: "When set for the table element" --> "When set for or inherited by the table element". 
<apphillips> +1 
<fyergeau> +1
<apphillips> --- 
<apphillips> 51        
<apphillips> Entities are extremely useful for disambiguation of invisible or identical characters, such as &rlm; and &nbsp;. It is much easier to work with names in these cases than to use NCRs. Please be driven by user needs rather than technological limitations where possible. 
<apphillips> --- quot 
<apphillips> Character entities: do we still need them? PR #671  
<apphillips> State: Approved  
<apphillips> Resolution: Accepted  
<apphillips> User: None  
<apphillips> Notes:  
<apphillips> The WG believes that there's still a need for character entities. We need to find a solution. On 9 September 2003, the WG agrees to retain character entities; DTDs therefore still necessary; it might be possible to supply a DTD that only provides the entities. 
<apphillips> -- 
<apphillips> +1 
<MJDuerst> francois, please type your opinion in IRC
<fyergeau> Agree with motivation (useful in some cases), but I don't think it's the HTML WG's job to solve that
<apphillips> FY: shouldn't require DTDs 
<apphillips> should say explicitly to remove latin-1 bias 
<apphillips> #s 35 and 39 need to be considered still 
<apphillips> 39 is "       
<apphillips> Suggested rewording: "This direction overrides the inherent directionality of characters as defined in Unicode Standard" --> "This direction affects the display of characters as defined in Unicode Standard". It doesn't change the inherent directionality of the characters themselves, just the behaviour of those characters in context." 
<apphillips> --- 
<apphillips> (Link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-i18n-ig/2005Jan/0000.html)http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-i18n-ig/2005Jan/0000.html 
<apphillips> SVG line-breaking 
<apphillips> RI: do they deal with justification too?? 
<apphillips> <quot>    Is there an algorithmic way to determine this or must you use a  
<apphillips> dictionary?  Reading the text of this section it seems to require a  
<apphillips> dictionary.  What is the I18N's opinion on the specification of a 
<apphillips> "reasonable" line breaking alg independent of dictionaries? </quot>
<apphillips> AP: action: write response email for review by next meeting 
<apphillips> AP and RI to discuss at some point to ensure mutual understanding 
<apphillips> ---- 
<apphillips> Other: 
<apphillips> MD: IRI should be published today as an RFC 
<fyergeau> Hip hip hip, hurray!
<fyergeau> RFC 3987
<apphillips> congratulations are in order!! 
<fyergeau> +1
<apphillips> (Link: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3987.txt)http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3987.txt 
<apphillips> --- 
<fyergeau> Charmod telcon Thursday is on
<Zakim> -fyergeau
<Zakim> -MJDuerst
<Zakim> -[IBM]
<Zakim> -apphillips
<Zakim> -Ishida
<Zakim> I18N_WG(core tf)5:00PM has ended
<Zakim> Attendees were apphillips, [IBM], Ishida, fyergeau, MJDuerst
*** Signoff: fyergeau (Quit: Leaving)

Addison P. Phillips
Director, Globalization Architecture

Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group

Internationalization is an architecture. 
It is not a feature.
Received on Wednesday, 26 January 2005 18:12:40 GMT

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