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RE: CP, ISSUE-30: Link longdesc to role of img [Was: hypothetical question on longdesc]

From: Léonie Watson <lwatson@nomensa.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 10:34:35 +0000
To: John Foliot <john@foliot.ca>, 'Silvia Pfeiffer' <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com>, 'David Singer' <singer@apple.com>, 'Sean Hayes' <Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com>, '"'xn--mlform-iua@målform.no'"' <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>, "rubys@intertwingly.net" <rubys@intertwingly.net>, "laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com" <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>, "mjs@apple.com" <mjs@apple.com>, 'Paul Cotton' <Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com>, "public-html-a11y@w3.org" <public-html-a11y@w3.org>, "public-html@w3.org" <public-html@w3.org>
Message-ID: <D4219A0ECCAE794C9ED7DC6F5A4C0CD537B3D29238@jupiter.intranet.nomensa.com>
Silvia Pfeiffer wrote:
"When you see an image at the start of the video, you do not know if it's the first frame of the video, the n-the frame of the video, or a jpg being pulled in as a placeholder for a frame of the video. It can be any of these three. Therefore, since we agree that what matters is the UI and how it functions in the UI, there is no distinction between a paused frame and the poster. Therefore, from a logical and UI point of view, the jpg is indeed part of the video and its genesis does not matter."

	It's genesis may not matter, but its content does. As a screen reader user, I would like to know what that image contains. I'd also like to know what the movie contains.

	Whether the image is the cinema poster, a still from the video, the film company's ident, or something else entirely, I'd like to enjoy it. This shouldn't be confused with wanting to know what's in the video, anymore than you'd confuse looking at a poster on a cinema wall with reading a promotional description of the movie, or watching the movie itself.

Léonie.

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-----Original Message-----
From: John Foliot [mailto:john@foliot.ca]
Sent: 21 March 2012 23:42
To: 'Silvia Pfeiffer'; 'David Singer'; 'Sean Hayes'; '"'xn--mlform-iua@målform.no'"'; rubys@intertwingly.net; laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com; mjs@apple.com; 'Paul Cotton'; public-html-a11y@w3.org; public-html@w3.org
Subject: RE: CP, ISSUE-30: Link longdesc to role of img [Was: hypothetical question on longdesc]

Silvia Pfeiffer wrote:
> 
> When you see an image at the start of the video, you do not know if 
> it's the first frame of the video, the n-th frame of the video, or a 
> jpg being pulled in as a placeholder for a frame of the video. It can 
> be any of these three. Therefore, since we agree that what matters is 
> the UI and how it functions in the UI, there is no distinction between 
> a paused frame and the poster. Therefore, from a logical and UI point 
> of view, the jpg is indeed part of the video and its genesis does not 
> matter.

...which is why I had originally proposed <firstframe>, as it was also agnostic to the genesis of the visual display. 

What you are failing to understand is what is being asked for in terms of "descriptions" - the non-sighted users I have talked to want both a description of "the film" AS WELL AS a description of what that initial first image on screen actually LOOKS LIKE. They are degrees apart in how they would be described, and what they mean to the non-sighted user.

This discussion remains circular, with no clear understanding of what is actually being asked for. 

I, and I don't think anyone else, really cares where the image comes from (although allowing @poster to reference a uniquely different first image does shake things up significantly) - what is really required is 2 types of longer textual description. It is entirely reasonable that not both will be required all of the time, but that there will also be times when both will absolutely be required, and currently we can't do either - we should be planning for both scenarios, and stop insisting that only one scenario is ever going to emerge.

JF


 


-- 
Nomensa - humanising technology

Léonie Watson, Director of Accessibility
tel: +44 (0)117 929 7333
mob: +44 (0)792 116 8551
twitter: @we_are_Nomensa @LeonieWatson

Nomensa Email Disclaimer: http://www.nomensa.com/email-disclaimer

-----Original Message-----
From: John Foliot [mailto:john@foliot.ca] 
Sent: 21 March 2012 23:42
To: 'Silvia Pfeiffer'; 'David Singer'; 'Sean Hayes'; '"'xn--mlform-iua@målform.no'"'; rubys@intertwingly.net; laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com; mjs@apple.com; 'Paul Cotton'; public-html-a11y@w3.org; public-html@w3.org
Subject: RE: CP, ISSUE-30: Link longdesc to role of img [Was: hypothetical question on longdesc]

Silvia Pfeiffer wrote:
> 
> When you see an image at the start of the video, you do not know if 
> it's the first frame of the video, the n-th frame of the video, or a 
> jpg being pulled in as a placeholder for a frame of the video. It can 
> be any of these three. Therefore, since we agree that what matters is 
> the UI and how it functions in the UI, there is no distinction between 
> a paused frame and the poster. Therefore, from a logical and UI point 
> of view, the jpg is indeed part of the video and its genesis does not 
> matter.

...which is why I had originally proposed <firstframe>, as it was also agnostic to the genesis of the visual display. 

What you are failing to understand is what is being asked for in terms of "descriptions" - the non-sighted users I have talked to want both a description of "the film" AS WELL AS a description of what that initial first image on screen actually LOOKS LIKE. They are degrees apart in how they would be described, and what they mean to the non-sighted user.

This discussion remains circular, with no clear understanding of what is actually being asked for. 

I, and I don't think anyone else, really cares where the image comes from (although allowing @poster to reference a uniquely different first image does shake things up significantly) - what is really required is 2 types of longer textual description. It is entirely reasonable that not both will be required all of the time, but that there will also be times when both will absolutely be required, and currently we can't do either - we should be planning for both scenarios, and stop insisting that only one scenario is ever going to emerge.

JF
Received on Friday, 23 March 2012 10:36:42 GMT

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