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Re: device independent title attribute support in browsers and follow up question

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 11:45:34 +0100
Message-ID: <BANLkTikT=JP=hyuiZ5mx348PDp2aD9utkQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>
Cc: HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>, Charles McCathieNevile <chaals@opera.com>, David Bolter <dbolter@mozilla.com>, Adrian Bateman <adrianba@microsoft.com>, Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com>, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>
Hi Maciej,

>Sorry if this is not as helpful as it could be, it's just company policy.

no problem.

>  I don't know anything about the plans of other vendors of WebKit-based
browsers

I was  referring to webkit on windows for example not just on mac, i assume
it would also be covered by the same company policy.


regards
steve

On 8 May 2011 02:38, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:

>
> On May 7, 2011, at 11:44 AM, Steve Faulkner wrote:
>
> Hi Maciej,
>
> thanks for the reply,
>
> So just to be clear, there are no concrete plans for webkit to provide
> access to title attribute content for keyboard users?
>
>
> Like I said before: "Apple does not generally give specific details
> regarding future product plans." I can't tell you anything about concrete
> feature plans at this time. I am specifically *not* saying that there are no
> plans, I'm just not free to comment on specific plans. Sorry if this is not
> as helpful as it could be, it's just company policy.
>
> note: I am referring to webkit cross platform.
>
>
> I don't know anything about the plans of other vendors of WebKit-based
> browsers, and I don't know offhand whether any functionality to be added
> here would be in cross-platform or platform-specific parts of the code.
> There are many Google representatives on this list, including several who
> work on Chrome, and they may be in a position to tell you whether Google is
> interested in such functionality.
>
> Regards,
> Maciej
>
>
> regards
> Stevef
>
>
>
>
> On 7 May 2011 01:45, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On May 5, 2011, at 2:26 AM, Steve Faulkner wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I originally requested feedback on April 19th, since the 2 vendors have
>> indicated that they have no plans to implement device independent access to
>> the title attribute.
>>
>> Can it be taken that the lack of response from Apple and Opera that they
>> also have no plans?
>>
>>
>> Apple does not generally give specific details regarding future product
>> plans. I can tell you that in general we are interested in accessibility and
>> strive to improve it over time.
>>
>> I can also tell you that, as far as current products go, Safari+VoiceOver
>> on Mac OS X makes the title attribute very broadly accessible, including to
>> blind or visually impaired users, and to users who have difficulties with
>> using a pointing device. We will give consideration to how the experience
>> can be improved when VoiceOver is not in use.
>>
>>
>> FYI
>> I published some data on title attribute usage on a few web pages,
>> http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/title-usage.html
>>
>> Of the pages checked approximatley 90% of title attribute content was a
>> duplicate or similar to the text content of the element the title attribute
>> was associated with.
>>
>> *A further question:*
>>
>> Do any vendors have plans to follow webkit's lead and display the title
>> attribute content in place of an image when the image is not rendered?
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure if this is intentional behavior or a bug. It definitely is
>> intentional that we expose title to assistive technologies, and that
>> consequently VoiceOver will use it when present for images that lack an alt
>> attribute. It is also intentional that alt does not create a tooltip, which
>> I believe is the primary intent of the HTML5 requirement that title and alt
>> should not be displayed in the same way. Historically, some older browsers
>> displayed alt text as a tooltip. This led to authors choosing alt text which
>> was advisory in nature and suitable for use in a tooltip, rather than alt
>> text which could act as a textual equivalent for the image. By this
>> standard, it's not necessarily wrong to show the title text on a missing
>> image when alt is missing, though it does seem the letter of the spec would
>> forbid this behavior.
>>
>> I think the spec requirement should be changed to say something like "User
>> agents must not present the contents of the alt attribute as if they were
>> advisory information, e.g. as a tooltip." The requirement as stated seems
>> wrong, because the spec does allow using title as a effectively a textual
>> replacement when alt is not available.
>>
>>
>> *Note:* if so the HTML5 spec will require updating as it currently
>> forbids alt and title to be displayed in the same way :
>>
>> "The alt attribute does not represent advisory information. User agents
>> must not present the contents of the alt attribute in the same way as
>> content of the title attribute."
>> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element
>>
>> Details of  support in 2010 for title and alt display on images is
>> available:
>>
>> alt and title content display in popular browsers
>> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2010/01/alt-and-title-content-display-in-popular-browsers/
>> results:
>> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/alt-tests/alt-examples.html
>> screenshots:
>> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/alt-tests/screenshots.html
>>
>> regards
>> Stevef
>>
>>
>> On 19 April 2011 09:37, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> A recent decision by the HTML working group makes it conforming to
>>> provide caption content for images whilst omitting the alt attribute.
>>> This is problematic because while alt is designed to be presented to
>>> users when the image cannot be viewed, and it is implemented as such.
>>> The title attribute is for advisory information that should be
>>> available to all users at any time. This is not the case and has never
>>> been the case in any graphical browser.
>>>
>>> Can any of the representatives from browser vendors provide
>>> information as to when the title attribute will be implemented so:
>>>
>>> * keyboard only users are aware that a title attribute is present on an
>>> element?
>>> * keyboard only users are able to access the title attribute content
>>> on an element using the keyboard?
>>> * The display of the title attribute content is configurable so that
>>> users of screen magnifiers are able view title attribute content
>>> within the viewport?
>>> * access to title attribute content will be available on mobile and
>>> touch browsers?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> with regards
>>>
>>> Steve Faulkner
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>  <http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html>
>
>
>
Received on Sunday, 8 May 2011 10:46:22 GMT

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