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Re: updated change proposal for issue 129 ARIA in HTML5

From: Stephen Stewart <carisenda@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 11:32:34 +0000
Message-ID: <AANLkTin_gweP=z3-FQBni4rNs55k4AX-4Egw3XyuDU+J@mail.gmail.com>
To: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Cc: HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>, HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
Hi Steve,

Great, though I think maybe I'll try once more and apologies for
clogging the list :)

As I understand it the "semantics" of the design of a headline, other
than it is a headline, it is that one line is the mainline, the rest
are not required to get the gist of the headline. Thus in the example
I have provided 'Clinton Acquitted' is enough; if you are skimming you
can get that part and miss the underline but still retain the subject
of the article. hgroup is giving you exactly this mechanism for
accessibility, the ability for an accessibility client to mimic the
skimming of a document which headline design is meant for. If you wish
to get the whole headline, read the whole hgroup. In this area I think
hgroup is actually a very successful element wrt accessibility.

Your new example doesn't help me, "Foo Bar" has exactly no meaning
therefore it is likely that any conclusion could be drawn from it. The
default stylings of h2 and h3 also have no meaning out of context.

Sorry to be a bore,
Stephen

On 2 February 2011 10:32, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote:
> thanks Stephen,
>
> 2 points:
>
> 1. The example text content is not meant be indicative, I have changed it to
> <hgroup>
> <h2>Foo</h2>
> <h3>Bar</h3>
> </hgroup>
>
> 2. there are internal semantics conveyed visually
> h2 has a default rendering that differentiates it from h3
> and this is usually augmented by the use of CSS to further differentiate a
> heading and subheading.
>
> thus the heading/subheading semantics are lost to accessibility clients.
>
> regards
> stevef
>
>
> On 1 February 2011 23:46, Stephen Stewart <carisenda@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> The section on hgroup[1] caught my eye, it seems to me to use a bad
>> example:
>>
>> <hgroup>
>> <h2>The problem</h2>
>> <h3>Analysis</h3>
>> </hgroup>
>>
>> This seems to define two sections, Problem and Analysis ("The problem
>> Analysis" is very clumsy so it seems more likely to be two headings).
>> hgroup is for headlines which associate n+1 H1-6 elements with one
>> section, not two. If I were to substitute a more correct example I
>> think most of the problems disappear in this section as per the
>> author's own logic:
>>
>> <hgroup>
>> <h2>Clinton Acquitted</h2>
>> <h3>Perjury, obstruction charges defeated</h3>
>> </hgroup>
>>
>> Taking away the layout that should read as "Clinton
>> Acquitted<beat>Perjury, obstruction charges defeated", there are no
>> internal semantics to convey other than the order of the words.
>>
>> [1]
>> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAinHTML5#basis_for_defining_h1_to_h6_element_that_does_have_an_hgroup_ancestor
>>
>> HTH,
>> Stephen
>>
>> On 1 February 2011 12:12, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Hi all,
>> > the html accessibility ARIA subteam have discussed the counter proposal
>> > provided by the html5 editor.
>> > We have updated our change proposal[1]
>> >
>> > We have removed any out of scope issues (for this proposal) and have put
>> > issues of an editorial nature (in this proposal) to one side.  This does
>> > not
>> > mean that we do not consider editorial changes are required, but that
>> > these
>> > can be dealt with during last call.
>> >
>> > We have essentially boiled the change proposal down to what we consider
>> > the
>> > most important issues that need to be resolved prior to last call.
>> >
>> > [1] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAinHTML5
>> >
>> > --
>> > with regards
>> >
>> > Steve Faulkner
>> > Technical Director - TPG
>> >
>> > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
>> > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
>> > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
>> > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>> > Web Accessibility Toolbar -
>> > www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Stephen Stewart
>> carisenda@gmail.com
>
>
>
> --
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>
>



-- 
Stephen Stewart
carisenda@gmail.com
Received on Wednesday, 2 February 2011 11:33:08 UTC

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