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Re: aside and figure elements

From: Shelley Powers <shelleyp@burningbird.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 15:17:50 -0500
Message-ID: <4C0D53EE.7000104@burningbird.net>
To: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
CC: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>, Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, HTML WG <public-html@w3.org>, HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
Leif Halvard Silli wrote:
> Hi Shelly, 
>
> Shelley Powers, Mon, 07 Jun 2010 13:42:01 -0500:
>   
>> Leif Halvard Silli wrote:
>>     
>>> Shelley Powers, Mon, 07 Jun 2010 11:17:19 -0500:
>>>       
>     [...]
>   
>>>> I would say that img should be treated the same, regardless of 
>>>> whether it's in a figure element or not. It should have a non-empty 
>>>> alt tag. We hope people would have enough commonsense not to use 
>>>> figure for a decorative image.
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> You yourself have quoted the example from WAI-ARIA (because you 
>>> recommend using @role and aria-* rather than <figure>), where there 
>>> is a caption *and* the image has role="presentation". Sorry, but I 
>>> quote it again:
>>>
>>> <div role="img" aria-labelledby="caption">
>>>   <img src="example.png" role="presentation" alt="">
>>>   <p id="caption">A visible text caption labeling the image.</p>
>>> </div>
>>>
>>> So even if the one - or all - <img> elements of a <figure> are 
>>> defined to have role="presentation", that doesn't mean that the 
>>> image as such is presentational.   
>>>       
>> My example in my counter-proposal was the following:
>>     
>
> Correct. I now see that I overlooked that you actually stated that you 
> - for some reason - modified the WAI-ARIA example - my emphasis:   
>
> ]] 
> As an example, in the WAI-ARIA 1.0 specification, there is an image 
> listing _that_I_modified_, below: 
> [[
>
>   
>> <div role="img" aria-labelledby="caption">
>>    <img src="example.png" alt="Some descriptive text">
>>    <p id="caption">A visible text caption labeling the image.</p>
>>  </div>
>>
>> Which I believed to be equivalent to figure and figcaption.
>>     
>
> It should be damn close. Including the way that you designate the role 
> of the <div> container to be role="img". The only thing I don't grok, 
> is why you found it necessary to a) add content to @alt and b) remove 
> role="presentation" - I don't see that this increases the similarity. 
>  
>   
>> I don't believe I referenced role="presentation".
>>     
>
> No. You modified the example, for some reason.
>  
>   

Just a mistake on my part. I went back to the example, and I can see the 
purpose of the role in the img element now.

But yes, if the div contents are given a img role, according to the 
WAI-ARIA, since the role and text are associated now with the div, the 
img element, itself, doesn't have to map to the accessibility API.

Sorry.  My bad.
 
>> And the role=presentation has some interesting semantics that make 
>> its use with figure an interesting challenge. If you attach it to 
>> figure, the figure element isn't mapped to the accessibility API, but 
>> supposedly the contents could be.
>>
>> I would think using figure with role="presentation" is opening a can 
>> of worms with potentially conflicting semantics.
>>     
>
> If you think so, then you should also take it up in context of 
> WAI-ARIA. I, for one, find myself finding WAI-ARIA completely rational. 
> I must say that I really  have trouble seeing how the following can by 
> any more controversial ...
>
> 	<figure role="img">
> 	  <img src="example.png" role="presentation" alt="">
> 	  <summary>A visible text caption labeling the image.</summary>
> 	</figure>
>
> .... than this (WAI-ARIA's example):
>
> 	<div role="img" aria-labelledby="caption">
> 	  <img src="example.png" role="presentation" alt="">
> 	  <p id="caption">A visible text caption labeling the image.</p>
> 	</div>
>   

Shelley
Received on Monday, 7 June 2010 20:18:28 GMT

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