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Re: summary="" in HTML5 ISSUE-32

From: David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 06:33:34 -0500
Cc: Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, HTMLWG <public-html@w3.org>, "W3C WAI Protocols & Formats" <w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>
Message-Id: <DB317874-EFDB-414F-B985-C09A712F6F90@comcast.net>
To: Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
sometimes, we are correcting mistakes as we go.  it wouldn't be too  
difficult to get a note on this into some form for html4 consumption.   
Now, we've gone from throwing out html4 elements to not wanting to or  
pointing out that they would be contradicted.  I'm being a bit toung  
in cheak here, because I am not certain this is a serious topic for  
discussion.

On Feb 26, 2009, at 6:15 AM, Steven Faulkner wrote:

Another point to consider is that even if HTML5 included a visible
@summary, it should not mean that browsers should make the @summary
visible in HTML 4 (or any non HTML 5 pages) pages as that would
contradict the HTML 4 spec would it not?

"for user agents rendering to non-visual media such as speech and  
Braille"[1]

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#adef-summary


regards
stevef

2009/2/26 David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>:
> Incase it got lost in the shuffle, @summary must provide two types of
> information and two types of information which keeps its value in  
> play:
> 1> @summary provides information about the structure of the table.
> 2> @summary provides narrative information for the purpose of  
> comprehention
> of the data in the table.
>
> If we lump all of this plus whatever else we decide to through at it  
> into
> caption, the noise will drown this out.
>
> As steve says, keeping @summary and making it visible is the best  
> way to
> ensure continuity of information and will force authors to write  
> better
> @summary="".
>
> It cannot be stressed enough that just because something is used  
> badly that
> it should not be thrown away.  otherwise, we are going to throw away  
> a lot
> of the web.  Instead, we must find a way forward toward better use  
> of what
> we have and enhancement of what we have through the development of new
> technologies which meet the needs of all.  As things currently  
> stand, we
> have a devided situation.  those who care about accessibility  
> authoring
> practices im ho are using html prior.  Those who have other overriding
> concerns are increasingly using html5.  I'm not saying lest I be  
> mistaken
> once again that the developpers of html5 and those who develop with  
> it and
> push for its use are against accessibility, rather that in gutting the
> foundations of accessibility without adaquate fallback forces our  
> hand.
>
>
> On Feb 26, 2009, at 5:30 AM, Steven Faulkner wrote:
>
> Hi Ian,
>
> "That would be ideal, but unfortunately, pages on the Web that use
> summary="" almost always use it incorrectly, with horrible values that
> aren't helpful to anyone, "
>
> This a statement of opinion not fact. Please do not continue to assert
> this without providing a balanced study of summary use to back it up.
> It also assumes that once available to "all users" authors would
> continue to use what you assert to be "horrible values". Which does
> not follow from your logic of better summaries being provided if they
> are visible to all in whatever form.
>
> PS: I have ccd PF as the subject is under active discussion and your
> opinions are useful in relation to these discussions.
>
> regards
> stevef
>
> 2009/2/26 Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>:
>>
>> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009, David Poehlman wrote:
>>>
>>> could @summary not be taught to display to all?
>>
>> That would be ideal, but unfortunately, pages on the Web that use
>> summary="" almost always use it incorrectly, with horrible values  
>> that
>> aren't helpful to anyone, and thus we could never get browser  
>> vendors to
>> actually do this.
>>
>> Having whatever solution we _do_ use, e.g. <caption>, be visible to  
>> all
>> users from the beginning, ensures that all users get a better  
>> experience
>> because bad summary="" text won't be created.
>>
>> (Authors typically write bad summary="" text for the same reason they
>> write bad alt="" text -- they don't understand what they are doing,  
>> and
>> have no way to test it. Visible text, they _do_ have a way to test.)
>>
>> Note that in HTML5, <caption> has been redefined to clearly include  
>> in its
>> scope all the material that in HTML4 was only appropriate in  
>> summary="".
>>
>> --
>> Ian Hickson               U+1047E                ) 
>> \._.,--....,'``.    fL
>> http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _ 
>> \  ;`._ ,.
>> Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'-- 
>> (,_..'`-.;.'
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG Europe
> Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>
> --
> Jonnie Appleseed
> with his
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
> reducing technology's disabilities
> one byte at a time
>
>



-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG Europe
Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium

www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
Web Accessibility Toolbar -
http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html

-- 
Jonnie Appleseed
with his
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
reducing technology's disabilities
one byte at a time
Received on Thursday, 26 February 2009 11:34:14 GMT

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