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Re: summary="" in HTML5 ISSUE-32

From: Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 11:15:54 +0000
Message-ID: <55687cf80902260315y66816d0apaa61d558fc67cfcf@mail.gmail.com>
To: David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
Cc: Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, HTMLWG <public-html@w3.org>, "W3C WAI Protocols & Formats" <w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>
Another point to consider is that even if HTML5 included a visible
@summary, it should not mean that browsers should make the @summary
visible in HTML 4 (or any non HTML 5 pages) pages as that would
contradict the HTML 4 spec would it not?

"for user agents rendering to non-visual media such as speech and Braille"[1]

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#adef-summary


regards
stevef

2009/2/26 David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>:
> Incase it got lost in the shuffle, @summary must provide two types of
> information and two types of information which keeps its value in play:
> 1> @summary provides information about the structure of the table.
> 2> @summary provides narrative information for the purpose of comprehention
> of the data in the table.
>
> If we lump all of this plus whatever else we decide to through at it into
> caption, the noise will drown this out.
>
> As steve says, keeping @summary and making it visible is the best way to
> ensure continuity of information and will force authors to write better
> @summary="".
>
> It cannot be stressed enough that just because something is used badly that
> it should not be thrown away.  otherwise, we are going to throw away a lot
> of the web.  Instead, we must find a way forward toward better use of what
> we have and enhancement of what we have through the development of new
> technologies which meet the needs of all.  As things currently stand, we
> have a devided situation.  those who care about accessibility authoring
> practices im ho are using html prior.  Those who have other overriding
> concerns are increasingly using html5.  I'm not saying lest I be mistaken
> once again that the developpers of html5 and those who develop with it and
> push for its use are against accessibility, rather that in gutting the
> foundations of accessibility without adaquate fallback forces our hand.
>
>
> On Feb 26, 2009, at 5:30 AM, Steven Faulkner wrote:
>
> Hi Ian,
>
> "That would be ideal, but unfortunately, pages on the Web that use
> summary="" almost always use it incorrectly, with horrible values that
> aren't helpful to anyone, "
>
> This a statement of opinion not fact. Please do not continue to assert
> this without providing a balanced study of summary use to back it up.
> It also assumes that once available to "all users" authors would
> continue to use what you assert to be "horrible values". Which does
> not follow from your logic of better summaries being provided if they
> are visible to all in whatever form.
>
> PS: I have ccd PF as the subject is under active discussion and your
> opinions are useful in relation to these discussions.
>
> regards
> stevef
>
> 2009/2/26 Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>:
>>
>> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009, David Poehlman wrote:
>>>
>>> could @summary not be taught to display to all?
>>
>> That would be ideal, but unfortunately, pages on the Web that use
>> summary="" almost always use it incorrectly, with horrible values that
>> aren't helpful to anyone, and thus we could never get browser vendors to
>> actually do this.
>>
>> Having whatever solution we _do_ use, e.g. <caption>, be visible to all
>> users from the beginning, ensures that all users get a better experience
>> because bad summary="" text won't be created.
>>
>> (Authors typically write bad summary="" text for the same reason they
>> write bad alt="" text -- they don't understand what they are doing, and
>> have no way to test it. Visible text, they _do_ have a way to test.)
>>
>> Note that in HTML5, <caption> has been redefined to clearly include in its
>> scope all the material that in HTML4 was only appropriate in summary="".
>>
>> --
>> Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
>> http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
>> Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG Europe
> Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>
> --
> Jonnie Appleseed
> with his
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
> reducing technology's disabilities
> one byte at a time
>
>



-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG Europe
Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium

www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
Web Accessibility Toolbar -
http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
Received on Thursday, 26 February 2009 11:16:35 UTC

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