W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > February 2009

Re: summary="" in HTML5 ISSUE-32

From: David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 14:48:56 -0500
Cc: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>, Robert J Burns <rob@robburns.com>, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <oedipus@hicom.net>, Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>, James Graham <jgraham@opera.com>, Joshue O Connor <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>, Steve Axthelm <steveax@pobox.com>, Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, Simon Pieters <simonp@opera.com>, HTMLWG <public-html@w3.org>, wai-xtech@w3.org, wai-liaison@w3.org, janina@rednote.net, Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>, Matt Morgan-May <mattmay@adobe.com>, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, "W3C WAI Protocols & Formats" <w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>
Message-Id: <B58BE4A7-1013-4FF0-AA99-7CF23F960040@comcast.net>
To: Jonas Sicking <jonas@sicking.cc>
I don't think it is possible to associate a <p> programatically</p to  
a table.  It might be possible to designate someting inside the table  
to surve the same purpurpose as @summary though.

I also want to point out that I consider it a grose miss use of  
@summary="" required to pass a test as well, miss use.

I appreciate the efforts on this but also hear and echo the conerns of  
others that we *really* need to have a good replacement or modify  
@summary to do what we need for it to do.

On Feb 25, 2009, at 2:37 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote:

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 10:50 AM, David Poehlman  
<poehlman1@comcast.net> wrote:
> <p> this is a layout table.
> <p> there is no summary for this table...
> Now, where was that little d?

I'm sorry, I don't understand the question? Could you elaborate?

> Not picking on you but we need programatic association and clear  
> markup
> which @summary provides today.

This would indeed not be the case with the proposal to have a separate
paragraph (marked up with a <p>) before or after the table.

Could you elaborate on why this is needed?

If we added an attribute like summaryfor="idOfTable" to the <p>, would
that address all the problems you have with this proposed solution? Or
adding a summaryIn="idOfPara" on the <table>. I'm not suggesting this
as a solution, merely trying to understand your complaints with the
<p> solution.

Also, this problem (if it indeed is a problem) does not seem to exist
with any of the other solutions proposed. Maciej listed many more than
I did.

/ Jonas

> On Feb 25, 2009, at 1:42 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote:
>
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 9:23 AM, David Poehlman  
> <poehlman1@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> What actually mystifies me and I've been following every nuounce of  
>> the
>> conversation over a long span on several lists is that there has  
>> not been
>> shown to be anything satisfactorily demonstrated to replace what  
>> can be
>> and
>> has been used as such an accessibility enhancing attribute as  
>> @summary.
>
> Two suggestions I've seen so far are:
>
> * Use a <p> above the table describing the contents of the table.
> * Change the definition of <caption> to not just be the title of the
> table to also be allowed to contain a summary.
>
> Both these have the advantage if adding accessibility to all users
> rather than just ones that use AT clients.
>
> Another suggestion I've thought about is using the table@title
> attribute. Title attributes are already often used to add descriptive
> information out-of-flow. And title attributes are generally available
> in visual UAs in the form of tooltips.
>
> / Jonas
>
>
>
> --
> Jonnie Appleseed
> with his
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
> reducing technology's disabilities
> one byte at a time
>
>



-- 
Jonnie Appleseed
with his
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
reducing technology's disabilities
one byte at a time
Received on Wednesday, 25 February 2009 19:49:47 GMT

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