W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > May 2008

Re: ISSUE-41 (Dave Orchard): Decentralized extensibility

From: Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi>
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 20:09:06 +0300
Message-Id: <3E295482-7189-4279-8D94-C635463DBFDD@iki.fi>
To: HTML Issue Tracking WG <public-html@w3.org>

On May 8, 2008, at 18:20 , HTML Issue Tracking Issue Tracker wrote:

> ISSUE-41 (Dave Orchard): Decentralized extensibility
>
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/
>
> Raised by: David Orchard
> On product:
>
> The HTML5 specification does not have a mechanism to allow  
> decentralized parties to create their own languages, typically XML  
> languages, and exchange them in HTML5 text/html serializations.   
> This would allow languages such as SVG, MathML, FBML and a host of  
> others to be included.  At one point, an editors version of the  
> HTML5 specification contained a subset and reformulation of SVG and  
> MathML.  Tim Berners-Lee described this incorporation of SVG and  
> MathML without namespaces as horrific and the issue raiser  
> completely concurs with the him.
>
> This issue limits the ability of non-HTML5 working groups to define  
> languages as the languages must be "brought into" the HTML5  
> language.  This dramatically increases the scope of HTML5 and  
> decreases the ability to modularize development of orthogonal  
> languages.
>
> In the end, the problem could result in the text/html serialization  
> rules becoming the standard serialization rules for XML languages,  
> replacing XML itself.  This could occur if every decentralized  
> language has a choice between the XML serialization, the text/html  
> serialization or both.  In many cases, the language may choose the  
> text/html serialization.


I discussed this with Dave in Dublin this past week. Here's a write-up  
of my points (with elaborations) for WG members who weren't attending  
the same dinner:

I think there are three kinds of HTML extensions:
  1) Extensions to the feature set of browser engines. Example: <canvas>
  2) Extensions that are meant to be used in documents consumed by  
browsers but the extensions have value even when not acted on by  
browsers: Example: hCal.
  3) Extensions that are not meant to be used in documents consumed by  
browsers. Example: FBML.

I think case #1 and #3 are easier to tackle than #2, so I discuss #1  
and #3 first.

Case #1 -- Extensions to the feature set of browser engines

Extensions to the feature set of browser engines quite obviously  
require modifications to the engines. Since modifications to the  
engines are needed anyway, modifications to the parser could be made  
as well. Moreover,to implement <canvas>, SVG, MathML, Web Forms 2.0 or  
ARIA, the amount of work needed on code above the parser layer by far  
exceeds the amount of work that would go into tweaking the parser if  
the extension mechanism for this class of extensions weren't generic  
enough not to require parser changes. Therefore, I think trying to  
establish a framework that guaranteed that we'd never have to tweak  
parsing would be the wrong optimization. However, when an extension  
can be done without tweaking the parser, not tweaking the parser is  
preferable (hence, aria-foo).

Even if parsing is tweaked, it is crucial not to tweak parsing in a  
way that interfered with existing Web content too much. This  
dramatically limits what kind of syntax extensions can use.

Extensions to the feature set of browser engines, if successful, stop  
being "extensions" when considered at a future date. From a future  
point of view, the features have become part of the core feature set.  
Also, the time from being considered an "extension" to being  
considered "in the core" is likely shorter than the time from thereon  
until the sunset of that part of Web technology. Once a feature has  
become part of the core, Web authors using the feature shouldn't have  
to care where it came from. Moreover, they shouldn't have to deal with  
cruft like namespace URIs or prefixes. I think having <canvas> is much  
better than having <apple:canvas>.

As a case study, <canvas> isn't flawless. So what went wrong? At  
first, Apple made it a void element but then others wanted to make it  
a container. Apple then had to make an incompatible change to their  
implementation to align with others. This could have been avoided by  
allowing the design to be reviewed by interested parties before  
shipping a product with the feature.

It should also be noted that the number of parties who effectively  
have the power to extend the browser engine feature set is fairly  
small. (I'd say 4 at the moment.) A small number of parties can take  
names from a single pool on a first-come-first-served basis. This  
seems repulsive to some, as it raises the question of name squatting.  
However, in practice to claim a name on the Web is to successfully  
implement uses for a name. URI-based extensibility isn't immune to  
this phenomenon: If browsers implement certain behavior for a given  
namespace, but a WG who claims the namespace in a de jure way writes a  
contradictory spec, the spec is pretty toothless in practice.

Conclusion:
This extension case doesn't need a technical mechanism. It needs a  
social mechanism that allows would-be extenders to bring their intent  
to extend forward for community review early in the process. (The  
mechanism can be posting to public-html or to the WHATWG mailing list.)

(I don't find adding MathML and SVG parsing to text/html as special  
cases horrific.)


Case #3 -- Extensions that are not meant to be used in documents  
consumed by browsers

When documents aren't meant for browsers, we can get rid of a lot of  
backwards-compatibility baggage. On the other hand, this kind of  
extensions are likely to be more abundant than extensions to browser  
engines, because product-specific templating systems outnumber  
browsers. Furthermore, templating systems may want to be able to put  
individual HTML elements in contexts that are incompatible with text/ 
html parsing. Consider for example templating syntax between <table>  
and its <tr>s.

Since these cases are likely to outnumber browsers and to be more  
frequent than extensions to browser engines, being able to use off-the- 
shelf software without modification becomes a more attractive  
optimization point while at the same time the parser doesn't need to  
be Web-compatible.

Conclusion:

It seems to me that mixing XHTML5 with product-specific elements and  
attributes in XML is a good fit for this extension case. No new  
extension mechanism is needed, since Namespaces in XML are available.

Objection: XML is too hard because it's Draconian.
Answer: Then we need non-Draconian XML5.
Follow-up objection: Want one syntax instead of two (HTML5 and XML5).
Answer: Too bad but text/html backwards compatibility and being able  
to represent all XML 1.0 infosets (needed for replacing XML) are  
conflicting goals.

Proof of conflict:
  1) text/html compatibility requires the parser to infer an <html>  
root.
  2) There are XML vocabularies whose root is not <html>, such as SVG.
  3) Q.E.D.


Case #2 -- Extensions that are meant to be used in documents consumed  
by browsers but the extensions have value even when not acted on by  
browsers

This is the hard case. The would-be extenders are more numerous than  
sources of browser engines. The would-be extenders can't change the  
way HTML is parsed.

I don't feel as sure about presenting a solution for this case as I am  
for the other two cases. I will, however, observe that regardless of  
whether URI-based extensibility is used, a pattern of using attributes  
is emerging in order not to interfere with element parsing: without  
URI-based extensibility being microformats and with URI-based  
extensibility being RDFa.

No conclusion, but this does suggest to me that the answer should be:

Put this kind of extensions in attributes. (New attributes, magic  
values or both.)

I'm not convinced that URI-based extensibility or similar is needed.  
To me it seems that it's sufficient for each extension to be have a  
gestalt that is recognizable with adequate probability. It seems  
unlikely that a valid hCal entry occurred by random chance. (rel='me'  
occurring by random chance seems a bit more likely, but I don't really  
worry about it.)

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen@iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/
Received on Sunday, 11 May 2008 17:09:49 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Wednesday, 9 May 2012 00:16:17 GMT