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Re: One more thought about requiring the alt to add to the pile

From: David Poehlman <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:03:44 -0400
Message-ID: <00c101c8a300$1d42be60$0901a8c0@HANDS>
To: "Steven Faulkner" <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Cc: "Henri Sivonen" <hsivonen@iki.fi>, <public-html@w3.org>, "W3C WAI-XTECH" <wai-xtech@w3.org>, <wai-liaison@w3.org>

No,

I was actually under the mistaken impression that alt="" shows up as the 
path to the image in JAWS using IE.  I see that it does not in this instance 
so wonder where I got that misconception.

I think someone else had pointed this out to me and I drew the same 
conclusion.

This is dangerous though as if you need to know that the text is null alted, 
you won't even know to look so JAWS should at least announce "graphic".

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven Faulkner" <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
To: "David Poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
Cc: "Henri Sivonen" <hsivonen@iki.fi>; <public-html@w3.org>; "W3C WAI-XTECH" 
<wai-xtech@w3.org>; <wai-liaison@w3.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: One more thought about requiring the alt to add to the pile


Hi David, tested in JAWS 8.0 on this test page:
http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/uc/imagetest.html

The pages 2 images , one with alt="" and one without alt.

 With HTML graphic verbosity option set to:

All: JAWS says "graphic" when a graphic is encountered and reads the
alternate text, if available, or reads the image file name if
alternate text is not specified.

Result using Interent explorer  , image with alt="" was not announced
and did not appear in the graphics list. The filename of the image
without alt is announced.

Result in Firefox both images are announced and appear in the graphic list.

I suspect this is where our conflicting results lie.

So for users of JAWS/firefox it make no difference if the image has no
alt or alt="" in the "all" graphics mode.

interesting result, thanks for bringing it up.


On 20/04/2008, David Poehlman <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com> 
wrote:
> I use all graphics mode in jaws 8 and 9.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steven Faulkner" <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
> To: "David Poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
> Cc: "Henri Sivonen" <hsivonen@iki.fi>; <public-html@w3.org>; "W3C 
> WAI-XTECH"
> <wai-xtech@w3.org>; <wai-liaison@w3.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:16 AM
> Subject: Re: One more thought about requiring the alt to add to the pile
>
>
>
> hi david,
> > Send me a page and I'll report.
>
> i have JAWS 5.1, 6.0, 6.2, 7.0 7.1, 8.0 and 9.0 intsalled on my machine
>
> So i asked for an example from you ,where this occurs at it dosn't
> tally with my findings, though my test have not been exhaustive.
>
> Are you using a version of JAWS other than those listed? If so which one?
> If I know which version then i can test it locally and then make the
> test page available to you, to see if there is a discrepency, between
> our results.
>
> it would also be helpful to know which mode you are using when it
> occurs and which verbosity settings.
>
> regards
> steve
>
> On 20/04/2008, David Poehlman <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
> wrote:
> > Send me a page and I'll report.
> >
> >
> >  ----- Original Message -----
> >  From: "Steven Faulkner" <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
> >
> > To: "David Poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
> >  Cc: "Henri Sivonen" <hsivonen@iki.fi>; <public-html@w3.org>; "W3C
> > WAI-XTECH"
> >  <wai-xtech@w3.org>; <wai-liaison@w3.org>
> >
> > Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 9:41 AM
> >  Subject: Re: One more thought about requiring the alt to add to the 
> > pile
> >
> >
> >
> >  hi david,
> >  >I have not seen jaws ignoring alt="" in fact, it reports some blather 
> > as
> >  >though there was no alt.
> >
> >  can you supply some examples of where this occurs and also what
> >  version of JAWS you are using.
> >
> >  regards
> >  stevef
> >
> >
> >
> >  On 20/04/2008, David Poehlman <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
> >  wrote:
> >  > I have not seen jaws ignoring alt="" in fact, it reports some blather
> > as
> >  > though there was no alt.
> >  >
> >  > ----- Original Message -----
> >  > From: "Steven Faulkner" <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
> >  > To: "Henri Sivonen" <hsivonen@iki.fi>
> >  > Cc: <public-html@w3.org>; "W3C WAI-XTECH" <wai-xtech@w3.org>;
> >  > <wai-liaison@w3.org>
> >  > Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:25 AM
> >  > Subject: Re: One more thought about requiring the alt to add to the
> > pile
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > hi henri,
> >  >
> >  > >  There has now been a decade-long experiment with making alt a 
> > syntax
> >  > > requirement. I think this experiment shows that doing so has the
> >  > > downside
> >  > > of
> >  > > inducing bogus alt. When validation has downsides, as a validator
> >  > > developer,
> >  > > I want to work to remove the downsides.
> >  >
> >  > Where is the empirical data to support your assumptions? All we
> >  > currently have on both sides is anecdote and conviction.
> >  >
> >  > >  A modal non-visual UI may be easier to invent, but in a non-visual
> > UI
> >  > > it
> >  > > is
> >  > > also harder to tell what mode you are trapped in, so I don't think 
> > it
> > is
> >  > > necessarily OK to introduce more modality even if there already is
> > some.
> >  > > It
> >  > > appears that VoiceOver tries to avoid modality (apart from the VO 
> > key
> >  > > lock)
> >  > > just like visual Apple user interfaces.
> >  >
> >  > As far as AT is concerned we are not comparing like with like.
> >  > the windows and mac OS systems present different challenges for AT to
> >  > overcome.
> >  > I do  not understand the reason for presence of modal UIs in windows
> >  > AT, but not in voiceover.
> >  >
> >  > my suggestion was not to add another mode as both window eys and jaws
> >  > (for example) have the option available already to announce all
> >  > graphics, but currently this setting still ignores <img alt="">,
> >  > so what I am suggesting is that the vendors merely change the
> >  > functionality for this option so that alt="" is reported.
> >  >
> >  > regards
> >  > stevef
> >  > On 20/04/2008, Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi> wrote:
> >  > > On Apr 18, 2008, at 11:07, Steven Faulkner wrote:
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > > > No. Now you are being so dogmatic about the alt attribute being
> >  > > > > there
> >  > > > > that you are willing to suggest modal UI to work around it.
> > That's
> >  > > > > bad.
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > There is dogma on both sides of the debate, you  appear more
> > dogmatic
> >  > > > about the idea of alt as optional, than I am to it being 
> > required,
> > I
> >  > > > have publically stated that I am as yet unconvinced of the
> >  > > > desirability of a required alt. There is obviuosly no doubt in 
> > your
> >  > > > mind.
> >  > > >
> >  > >
> >  > >  I can be persuaded with empirical data.
> >  > >
> >  > >  There has now been a decade-long experiment with making alt a 
> > syntax
> >  > > requirement. I think this experiment shows that doing so has the
> >  > > downside
> >  > > of
> >  > > inducing bogus alt. When validation has downsides, as a validator
> >  > > developer,
> >  > > I want to work to remove the downsides.
> >  > >
> >  > >  It may be that there's a greater upside and that a situation that
> >  > > polarizes
> >  > > results but has a greater upside is better even if it also moves 
> > the
> >  > > downside further from neutrality. However, absent data about this, 
> > I
> >  > > think
> >  > > it is reasonable to default to removing the downside.
> >  > >
> >  > >  Also, I think the Image Review feature I have implemented in
> >  > > Validator.nu
> >  > > works better than merely flagging missing alt as a validation error
> >  > > would
> >  > > for validator users who want to maximize an accessibility measure. 
> > It
> >  > > remains to be seen how it affects validator users who don't care
> > about
> >  > > an
> >  > > accessibility measure and are seeking to maximize a syntactic
> >  > > correctness
> >  > > measure.
> >  > >
> >  > >  In general, if you want people to maximize function f(), it is 
> > safer
> > to
> >  > > tell them to do so than to tell them to maximize a more appealing
> >  > > function
> >  > > g() and then try to build an artificial correlation between the 
> > two.
> >  > > Because
> >  > > then people are really maximizing g() and if your artificial
> > correlation
> >  > > setup isn't working, well, oops. So if your agenda is 
> > accessibility,
> > the
> >  > > advocacy should be "accessibility, accessibility"--not "validity,
> >  > > validity"
> >  > > with an added attempt to tie them together.
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > > > There already are  "modal UI's" for most aspects of screen 
> > readers
> >  > > > content presentation, i think it is the nature of  presenting
> > visual
> >  > > > UI's non visually or non linear content linearly.
> >  > > >
> >  > >
> >  > >  A modal non-visual UI may be easier to invent, but in a non-visual
> > UI
> >  > > it
> >  > > is
> >  > > also harder to tell what mode you are trapped in, so I don't think 
> > it
> > is
> >  > > necessarily OK to introduce more modality even if there already is
> > some.
> >  > > It
> >  > > appears that VoiceOver tries to avoid modality (apart from the VO 
> > key
> >  > > lock)
> >  > > just like visual Apple user interfaces.
> >  > >
> >  > >  --
> >  > >  Henri Sivonen
> >  > >  hsivonen@iki.fi
> >  > >  http://hsivonen.iki.fi/
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > --
> >  > with regards
> >  >
> >  > Steve Faulkner
> >  > Technical Director - TPG Europe
> >  > Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium
> >  >
> >  > www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
> >  > Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> >  > http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >
> >
> >  --
> >  with regards
> >
> >  Steve Faulkner
> >  Technical Director - TPG Europe
> >  Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium
> >
> >  www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
> >  Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> >  http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG Europe
> Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>
>
>
>


-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG Europe
Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium

www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
Web Accessibility Toolbar -
http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
Received on Sunday, 20 April 2008 16:04:34 GMT

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