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Re: [Bug 10838] New: Make <u> conforming.

From: Ethan Chen <chief@ethantw.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 11:50:02 +0800
Cc: 中文HTML5同樂會ML <public-html-ig-zh@w3.org>
Message-Id: <4BF86EF4-6EF7-4068-8E9E-AC665B4415B2@ethantw.net>
To: KangHao Lu (Kenny) <kennyluck@csail.mit.edu>
收到 Ian 'Hixie' Hickson 的回信了:

> If we introduced <u> with the semantic "proper name mark", it would just be
> used incorrectly by everyone. So doing that would be bad. If this is a use case
> that we should address, then we're better off introducing a new element for it.
> 
> I can't find another reason to have <u> (I've thought about this quite a bit).
> It really does seem to be purely presentational; far more than even <small>,
> <b>, <i>, and <s>.


所以是不是代表新增@個標籤比 <u> 有機會?


在 Sep 30, 2010 7:46 AM 時, KangHao Lu (Kenny) 寫到:

> 說明@下、、這算是對之前專名號的討論[1]做的回應,總之就是希望HTML5標準書至少不會把<u>放在「不合標準的標籤」[2] 而至少放在「將被拋棄但是合標準」[3]。很抱歉沒先在這個郵件群組得到@識,但是從10/1開始回報標準錯誤的過程會進入下@個階段所以我至少希望這個議題在這個時候被拿出來討論@下。我目前的看法是
> 
> - 加@個新標籤(像是<pn>之類的)真的很不可能
> - 用<a>或<a href>(屬性沒值)是@種濫用
> - <span class="pn"> 還是有點太長了
> - Mike跟我講說<i>留下來的很大原因是因為西方會用斜體標船名,總不能發明@個<ship>吧。所以<u>是比較實在的,而且也不少人支持把<u>拿回來。
> 
> 
> 
> 總之這個議題處理的狀況都會CC到這個列表啦,如果這個提案被回絕了大家也多多瞭解這個HTML5編輯Ian Hickson是怎麼做事的吧。議題回報裡我也提到了之前的討論(三年前了、、),有些為什麼<u>不見了但是<b><i>回來了的原因(主要就是<u>跟超連結的混亂問題)。不過那時候都沒什麼人提到專名號所以這次就順便提了@提啦!
> 
> 歡迎大家用HTML5 Bug Tracker的時候CC到這邊來。
> 
> 有空再多介紹@些HTML5的名人吧(像是Bug裡提到的Apple的Maciej[5])
> 
> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-zh/2010Aug/threadl#msg184
> [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#non-conforming-features
> [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete-but-conforming-features
> [4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/thread#msg268
> [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maciej_Stachowiak
> 
> 此致
> 
> Kenny
> 
> On 2010/09/30, at 8:06, bugzilla@jessica.w3.org wrote:
> 
>> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10838
>> 
>>          Summary: Make <u> conforming.
>>          Product: HTML WG
>>          Version: unspecified
>>         Platform: PC
>>              URL: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete-but-
>>                   conforming-features
>>       OS/Version: All
>>           Status: NEW
>>         Severity: major
>>         Priority: P3
>>        Component: HTML5 spec (editor: Ian Hickson)
>>       AssignedTo: ian@hixie.ch
>>       ReportedBy: kennyluck@w3.org
>>        QAContact: public-html-bugzilla@w3.org
>>               CC: mike@w3.org, public-html-wg-issue-tracking@w3.org,
>>                   public-html@w3.org, public-i18n-cjk@w3.org,
>>                   public-html-ig-zh@w3.org
>> 
>> 
>> This was discussed in a long thread[1] three years ago. There was no consensus
>> and no response from the editor, but since some people like Maciej think we can
>> make <u> at least conforming[2], I would like to raise this bug to catch the
>> editor's attention.
>> 
>> Proper name mark, in Chinese [3] is a use case that was slightly mentioned in
>> the thread (see also an example picture[4]). The purpose of this mark is to
>> highlight *every* proper noun in some text to help the reader break words,
>> cause Chinese people don't use spaces for word breaking. Although it is no
>> longer popular recently, proper name mark is still used in some textbooks in
>> Taiwan (esp. children's Chinese textbook) and Hong Kong. Because the purpose
>> and frequency of using "proper name mark" in a piece of text is similar to code
>> highlighting, I personally don't think it's appropriate to use <mark> for this
>> purpose since the spec says "This (<mark>) is separate from syntax
>> highlighting, for which span is more appropriate." But then <span class="pn">
>> is probably too long. This is not yet a very prevalent use case because proper
>> name marks are often used in combination with vertical text and vertical text
>> is not yet popular on the Web.
>> 
>> While I do strongly agree that an underlined text which is not a hyperlink
>> confuses the user in his/her browsing experience, there are HTML user agents
>> for which browsing the Web isn't the main purpose and hence the user might not
>> get confused. e-book readers are such examles.
>> 
>> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/thread#msg268
>> [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/0307
>> [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_name_mark
>> [4] http://www.go8.com.tw/files/4168%200004.jpg
>> 
>> -- 
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> 
Received on Thursday, 30 September 2010 03:50:44 UTC

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