W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html-a11y@w3.org > April 2012

Re: Issue 204 CP objections [Was: TF Teleconference Minutes for 26 April]

From: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 03:01:17 +0200
To: Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis <bhawkeslewis@googlemail.com>
Cc: HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>, John Foliot <john@foliot.ca>
Message-ID: <20120427030117149933.2c21826c@xn--mlform-iua.no>
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis, Thu, 26 Apr 2012 22:33:40 +0100:
> On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> wrote:
>>   janina: wonderful statement in there is that this can already 
>> happen and people are already doing to

> But it's also plausible that such authors might use @hidden with the
> intent of hiding elements even from accessible names and descriptions.
> For example, @aria-describedby might reference text that has the
> @hidden attribute until it is relevant to the state of the
> application, for example error text. Consider the following example
>   <label for=username>Username:</label>
>   <input id=username name=username aria-describedby=error>
>   <div hidden id=error>Invalid username. Must be six or more
>                        alphanumeric characters.</div>
> If "hidden" means never ever render the content, then the error
> message doesn't get included in accessible description calculation
> until the error occurs and the "hidden" attribute removed.
> If "hidden" means do not render the content except for ARIA name and
> description calculation, then the error message is inappropriately
> included regardless of the actual state of the application.

To make the above not work, one must change ARIA so that 
does not work.

One could of course try to help by flagging it as an error to make 
aria-describedby point to @hidden and @aria-hidden="true" sections.

However, ARIA *also* says that one MUST do
<p style="display:none" aria-hidden="true">Hidden text.</p>

And thus, that one must not simply do
<p style="display:none">Hidden text.</p>

And so I guess you see the problem: To forbid to point hidden sections, 
could cause authors to not use aria-hidden="true".

> I've certainly seen lots of author confusion about whether display:
> none should hide or show content to screen readers.

Which underlines the problem I stated above.

> Maybe Jonas's scenario is more likely, I don't know. It would be good
> to have some data around this.
>>   JF: I asked Ben before to give us the actual quotes from the specs 
>> that he says we are contradicting
>>   <janina> mike: See he's clearly saying "it violates the spec," but 
>> doesn't tell us where/how
> I already sent an email responding to John's previous request for
> detail that explains at length why I think the text in the CP
> contradicts the HTML and ARIA specifications:
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Apr/0166.html

I read. And, whether pointing with a href link to a hidden section 
results in unpredictable behavior or predictably leads to a unexpected 
behavior, is not _that_ important. However, I get what you mean. I 
don't disagree in fixing it. That said, the use of @hidden does lead to 
some undpredictability too: The element could be made visible, via CSS, 
despite the @hidden attribute. What happens then?

When I read the rest of that letter, the I came to think that it 
perhaps should be forbidden to do 
Leif H Silli
Received on Friday, 27 April 2012 01:01:51 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Wednesday, 7 January 2015 15:05:28 UTC