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RE: Finalizing an Issue-204 CP

From: Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 06:31:26 +0000
To: John Foliot <john@foliot.ca>, 'Laura Carlson' <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>, 'Janina Sajka' <janina@rednote.net>, 'HTML Accessibility Task Force' <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
CC: 'Joshue O Connor' <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>, 'Judy Brewer' <jbrewer@w3.org>, "david100@sympatico.ca" <david100@sympatico.ca>, 'Richard Schwerdtfeger' <schwer@us.ibm.com>, 'James Nurthen' <james.nurthen@oracle.com>, 'Leif Halvard Silli' <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>, 'Jonas Sicking' <jonas@sicking.cc>
Message-ID: <1801F4DC51913E4CA721108367BC982E056C2B59@CH1PRD0310MB369.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Changed
<blockquote>
* Provides a simple, consistent way for UAs to hide content from sighted users while exposing it to screen reader users. 
</blockquote>

To

<blockquote>
* Provides a simple, consistent way for UAs to hide content from sighted users while exposing it to AT via the accessibility API. </blockquote>

Interesting... I don't see this as throwing longdesc under the bus, but as serving a different scenario than longdesc.  Sometimes you want to link off page (longdesc, aria-describedat), sometimes you want to link to an existing description on page (aria-describedby, aria-label, <label>), sometimes you want to provide strings to the API without doing either of the above (alt, title, aria-describedby+hidden, aria-labelledby+display:none, etc.).  This CP is about the last case.  To make this more clear, I've changed 

<blockquote>
* It has advantages over using CSS to position elements offscreen, because screen-reader users can access the text of an element without having to navigate to a separate element.
</blockquote>

To

<blockquote>
* Allows authors to provide in-place information to AT users in scenarios where doing so provides the best user experience.
* Has no impact on scenarios where navigating to another location for additional information provides the best user experience.
</blockquote>

-----Original Message-----
From: John Foliot [mailto:john@foliot.ca] 
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:43 PM
To: Cynthia Shelly; 'Laura Carlson'; 'Janina Sajka'; 'HTML Accessibility Task Force'
Cc: 'Joshue O Connor'; 'Judy Brewer'; david100@sympatico.ca; 'Richard Schwerdtfeger'; 'James Nurthen'; 'Leif Halvard Silli'; 'Jonas Sicking'
Subject: RE: Finalizing an Issue-204 CP
Importance: High

Re-reading the current draft, and I have *significant* issues with the following "Positive Effects":

	* Provides a simple, consistent way for UAs to hide content from sighted users while exposing it to screen reader users. This is consistent with the behavior of html input/label and aria-labeledby when those elements reference elements hidden with CSS visibility:hidden and display none.

This is not entirely true, and potentially quite confusing. Content hidden this way remains exposed *to the APIs*, but not necessarily to end users. For example, skip nav links are no longer made available to screen readers when we apply any of display:none;, visibility:hidden;, aria-hidden="true", or @hidden, and suggesting otherwise, even indirectly is simply dishonest

I would strike this entirely from the CP.

------------------------

	* It has advantages over using CSS to position elements offscreen, because screen-reader users can access the text of an element without having to navigate to a separate element.

No, no, no!  This is tantamount to saying it is better than using @longdesc, and it certainly is not, not by a long shot. 

It is a useful technique under certain circumstances, as is off-screen CSS positioned content (skip nav links - which can be placed off screen with CSS, and then placed on-screen using the CSS pseudo-class of :focus) and @longdesc (and the soon to come aria-describedAt attribute). Suggesting anything otherwise is a non-starter and *extremely* prejudicial to the Issue 30 effort.

A little over a year-and-a-half ago, there was some concern (expressed by Cynthia for one) that the Issue 30 CP we were seeking to endorse was "...throwing ARIA under the bus...", and I would suggest that this statement aptly fits this alleged Positive Effect today: it is throwing @longdesc directly under the bus and must be removed immediately.

JF




Received on Friday, 20 April 2012 06:32:11 GMT

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