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minutes: HTML Accessibility TF Telecon 2011-05-05 [draft]

From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 17:11:07 +0100
To: public-html-a11y@w3.org
Message-Id: <20110505160703.M6223@hicom.net>

minutes from the 5 May 2011 HTML Accessibility Task Force telecon
can be accessed as hypertext at:


as an IRC log at:


and as plain text following this announcement -- as usual, please
report any errors, omissions, clarifications, mis-attributions, 
and the like by replying-to this announcement on-list...

thanks to Steve and Leonie for providing the bulk of the minuting...  
volunteers for scribing for the next 2 TF calls (12 May and 19 May 
2011) should contact MikeSmith and/or Janina

                             - DRAFT -

            HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

05 May 2011


  See also: IRC log - http://www.w3.org/2011/05/05-html-a11y-irc


         Eric, Gregory_Rosmaita, JF, Leonie_Watson, Stevef, mranon,

         Janina, Rich, Cynthia_Shelly, Laura_Carlson, Silvia_Pfieffer,
         Kenny_Johar, Michael_Cooper


         Stevef, oedipus, Leonie_Watson


    * Topics
        1. Media subteam report
        2. Text subteam
        3. Canvas sub team
        4. ARIA Mapping/Bug Triage
        5. Review of Open Action Items
        6. Scribe for Next Week
    * Summary of Action Items

  <trackbot> Date: 05 May 2011

  <MikeSmith> Zaki, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)

  <MikeSmith> scribe: Stevef

Media subteam report

  MS: stuffed up the passcode, remember to chnage for next time

  JF doing mop up on issue 152 multi track API, essentially resolved,
  discussion about @king attributes, spec shows 5, but wiki page with
  other values, at least 3 more and maybe some others

  JF: require captions and subtitles, maybe commentary still being
  discussed, bug filed against this item.
  ... as far as spec, john is unsure

  MS: is there anything that chairs are waiting on?

  JF: not that i know
  ... 2-3 bugs resolved
  ... if we can get @kind values resolved amicaably before last call
  should be good

Text subteam

  MS: any questions, no move on

  <MikeSmith> scribe: oedipus

  SF: met monday -- discussing validation issues with text
  alternatives with judy and on list using the [text] subject line tag
  -- reopening issues -- gathering information on validation issue
  ... ones most worked on at the moment: meta genarator and @title --
  also work on role=presentation (would like to revisit)
  ... talk about FIGCAPTION -- trying to reason it out rather than
  reopen at this time -- agree on for past 2 years -- judy and geoff
  (WBGH) working on FIGCAPTION and longdesc

  <JF> +q

  SF: moved formal objection for @alt and @title -- waiting on

  <Stevef> oedipus: i can take it back now

  JF: also work on meta genarator decision -- fairly verbose
  discussion currently -- whittle down to 2 parts to present all
  evidence and in more sumarized fashion

  SF: issue of meta genarator tag a generic thing that was used in
  past in a LOT of published content -- didn't do to placate validator

  JF: 10 years of legacy content with meta generator strings -- must
  be considered
  ... turning meta genarator string into "magic token" is problem

  SF: meta generator exceptions and error rules in HTML5 investigated?
  ... MikeSmith know of any?
  ... have meta generator that is exception to use of @alt -- shuts up
  validator -- any other errors that tell validator to ignore specific
  ... can imagine if press rules, will be other requests for rules --
  why a single exception for @alt

  MS: worded in spec not to suppress error, but says alt required
  unsless there is a meta tag with name="generator" or a @title

  <JF> +q

  SF: flagging a conformance error

  MS: could perceive that way, but are other things in same class --
  not unique in that regard
  ... behavior class performance criteria for others as for generator

  SF: examples?

  MS: select element has required attribute and no multiple attr and
  size of 1 (have to compute, not just value of attr) if all are case,
  must have option attr that either has a value attr or doesn't have
  any text content
  ... other cases: complicated assertions in spec

  SF: doesn't have anything to do with setting flag via meta generator
  ... is there a flag one can set for changing error to non-error?
  ... happy to discuss offline with MS

  MS: happy to discuss offline -- not the only case

  JF: interested in question by SF -- what we have is a meta string --
  example you gave VERY tightly focused -- generator string in hand of
  document and effects ENTIRE document -- for CMS systems when in
  template can negatively affect entire site
  ... anything in spec that changes performance criteria for entire

  MS: this case is an extreme one, but not the only one
  ... presence of single element with certain attr in document affects
  every image in document
  ... talked with SF about this offline, but think in terms of
  validator behavior, don't think many users will expect when put in
  meta generator element in document that that means they are opting
  out of checking for @alt on img -- something consciously doing by
  adding generator? -- that to me is strong argument -- people want
  conformance checker to alert them to things that might otherwise

  JF: CMS supports 150 content authors who don't see code ever -- just
  add content to template -- don't know what meta generator string is
  -- 3rd party conformance tools have to deal with fact that @alt not
  needed if meta generator inserted -- allowed because of meta
  generator string -- assert most authors willl have NO idea they are
  creating a problem because generator string says confromant

  <Leonie_Watson> +1 to JF

  MS: conformance checker hat on this doesn't seem to be optimal
  behaviour -- should persue, but not now -- supportive of trying to
  see whether this is what other people working on ER tools think is
  acceptable behavior
  ... talk with henri about it on list good approach

  JF: ping RichS from IBM

  SF: OpenAjax Alliance

  MS: FIGCAPTION -- state of things: had agreement with TF just a few
  weeks ago --changed -- don't know how or why

  i don't remember consensus on FIGCAPTION

  <JF> JF wanted to include the wiki page for the @kind values for the
  multi-track API discussion:

  SF: misunderstanding in regards what WAI-CG agreed to over 2 years
  ago -- spec changed
  ... FIGCAPTION supposed to be a caption, not a text alternative --
  use cases that are WCAG conformant that a CAPTION is sufficient
  textual alternative

  MS: think we need to not operate under assumption that HTML WG
  chairs are going to delay LC for Text Subteam to complete work and
  have reviewed by TF -- not prudent assumption -- chairs plan to
  follow tight schedule for September 2011 publication -
  ... need to bring up for discussion in TF

  JF: suggest MS discuss this with Judy Brewer

  MS: anything else on text subteam?

  <Stevef> SF: FIGCAPTION supposed to be a caption, not a text
  alternative -- use cases that are WCAG conformant that a CAPTION is
  sufficient textual alternative

  <Stevef> <img role="presentation" title="poot">

  SF: if no @alt, but @title, role still presentation for element/attr
  and will NOT be in A11y API or accessible to ATs
  ... allowing that to occur means that it will not work for AT users
  -- role=presentation means content not available

  <MikeSmith> scribe: Leonie_Watson

  JF: What does title do for us from an accessibility perspective?
  ... It seems to me that until the browsers do something useful with

  SF: There is an implementation issue here that needs to be resolved.
  The conformance rule is contradictory.
  ... Either the spec has to change, or the implementation has to

  <oedipus> GJR: @title has NO place in graphical/visual rendering
  space -- if no @alt, no text inline -- only @title available
  onMouseOver (device dependent and impermenant [only rendered for a
  short time and then disappears

  JF: We have incomplete support for the title attrib, in that it only
  produces a tooltip in most browsers. For users with cognitive
  issues, you could argue this is helpful.

  <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say working on @summary for table and
  issue of hidden versus discoverable metadata

  JF: It's not available to all users though, only some users.

  MS: It sounds as though there's still some work to be done, but that
  there are people working on it.

Canvas sub team

  GJR: We've been working via email. We're waiting for the results of
  Rich's latest exchange with Ian. We're waiting for the inter group
  dynamic to work itself out. I think there is movement there.
  ... We're also aggresively pursuing testing canvas with ATs and
  browsers. We've gotten very good feedback/participation from AT

  MS: I don't think there's anything the TF needs to step in on there.

  <MikeSmith> scribe: oedipus

ARIA Mapping/Bug Triage

  MS: pertient people not here --

  JF: bug triage team needs to take a new pass after last few weeks of

Review of Open Action Items

  <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open

  MS: nothing with high priority -- a bunch due recently for text
  alternatives sub-team -- doesn't need further review
  ... don't need to reveiw as group

Scribe for Next Week

  MS: volunteer for 12 May 2011?
  ... Janina will chair next week
  ... other business?


Summary of Action Items

  [End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 5 May 2011 16:11:36 UTC

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