W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html-a11y@w3.org > January 2011

HTML A11y TF Weekly telecon minutes

From: Léonie Watson <lwatson@nomensa.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 17:32:20 +0000
To: HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
Message-ID: <D4219A0ECCAE794C9ED7DC6F5A4C0CD537B311D56F@jupiter.intranet.nomensa.com>
Good afternoon,

        The minutes from this week's HTML A11y TF telecon are available in HTML:

        They're also available as an IRC log:

        Finally, they're available as plain text below. As usual, please report any errors, omissions, or points of clarification to the list. Thanks.

                               - DRAFT -
             HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

27 Jan 2011


      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jan/0261.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2011/01/27-html-a11y-irc


          Eric_Carlson, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina, Michael_Cooper,
          Steve_Faulkner, Mike_Smith, John_Foliot, Marco_Ranon,

          Laura_Carlson, Denis_Boudreau, Geoff_Freed, Cynthia_Shelly,
          Joshue_O'Connor, Kenny_Johar, Silvia_Pfieffer, Rich




     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Identify Scribe
         2. [6]Newly Filed Issues of Interest (157, 158, 160, & 161)
         3. [7]Actions Review
         4. [8]Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug
         5. [9]Face to Face Agenda Discussion
         6. [10]Issue-30 longdesc Redux
     * [11]Summary of Action Items

   <trackbot> Date: 27 January 2011

   <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon

   <janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka & Mike_Smith

   <janina> agenda: this

   <oedipus> Newly Filed Issues of Interest (157, 158, 160, & 161)

   <scribe> scribe: Leonie_Watson

Identify Scribe

     [12] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List

   <oedipus> [13]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/157

     [13] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/157

Newly Filed Issues of Interest (157, 158, 160, & 161)

   <MichaelC> [14]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/157

     [14] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/157

   <oedipus> "This issue is not about "fixing ARIA", but about
   establishing a image map model which, eventually, lets ARIA
   implement image maps. (In that regard, I also mentioned image maps
   in this comment to on the ARIA 1.0 spec
   Mar/0001 "

     [15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2011JanMar/0001

   <oedipus> MC: HTML5 adapt model that ARIA expected to harmonize
   upon, we need to be involved

   <oedipus> [16]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/158

     [16] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/158

   <MichaelC> [17]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/158

     [17] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/158

   <oedipus> MC: issue 158 - HTML4 content model for OBJECT should be
   retained in HTML5

   <oedipus> [18]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/160

     [18] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/160

   <MichaelC> [19]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/160

     [19] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/160

   MC: My understanding is that HTML already does this.

   <oedipus> [20]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/161

     [20] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/161

   <MichaelC> [21]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/161

     [21] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/161

   <oedipus> MC: issue that tags work already taken on in subgroup of
   HTML A11y TF

   <MichaelC> relates to

     [22] http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-api-map/overview.html

   JS: Any discussion on those issues?
   ... Should we check in on 157 and 158 from time to time?

   MC: To my mind 157 relates to fall back content.

   <oedipus> GJR will follow issue 158 on OBJECT

   <JF> +q

   MC: Tracker issue 90 relates to issue 158.
   ... I'm not aware of any existing activity on 157 within this TF.

   : I'm concerned about the terminology of "fall back".

   : s/I'm concerned about the terminology of "fall back"./JF: I'm
   concerned about the terminology of "fall back"./

   s_of_definition_of_img change " An img element represents an image.
   The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content, and
   the value of the alt attribute is the img element's fallback
   content." to "An img element represents an image. The image given by
   the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt...

     [23] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/first_2_paragraphs_of_definition_of_img

   <oedipus> ...attribute provides equivalent content for those who
   cannot process images or who have image loading disabled."

   <oedipus> "

   JF: When we toss the phrase "fall back" around within the tf, we
   understand what it means. We perhaps need to be more careful

   <oedipus> fallback to me is a placeholder for something not there
   (image not loaded icon) --

   JS: We clearly need an alternative, one term should not apply to
   both circumstances.

   <oedipus> fallback equals error recovery, not equivalent content

   SF: With regard to canvas, is that the fall back can be interacted
   with even when the canvas is present.

   JS: I don't think we should be the ones to disambiguate the
   terminology, but we should raise it with the WG.

   MC: The distinction of use cases is something that accessibility
   specialists will be more aware of, but I'm not sure if people in the
   wider WG have that experience.

   <oedipus> agree with MC -- if understood by wider WG, would not have
   had to submit change proposal for definition of IMG

   GJR: Perhaps we should look at uses of "fall back content" and see
   if we can think of something more appropriate.

   JS: Should this move to bug triage?

   MC: No, it was bounced back from bug triage to the TF.
   ... Is there anything to say on 157?

Actions Review [24]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open

     [24] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open


   <trackbot> ACTION-85 -- Léonie Watson to create a change proposal
   for ISSUE-80 [25]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80 -- due
   2010-01-13 -- OPEN

     [25] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80

   <trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/85

     [26] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/85

   <oedipus> LW: have a proposal from SteveF for over a year -- had
   look at and thought was ok

   <MichaelC> close action-85

   <trackbot> ACTION-85 Create a change proposal for ISSUE-80
   [27]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80 closed

     [27] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80


   <trackbot> ACTION-86 -- Cynthia Shelly to create change proposal for
   ISSUE-133 [28]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133 -- due
   2010-01-13 -- OPEN

     [28] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133

   <trackbot> [29]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/86

     [29] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/86

   GJR: Was this overcome by my action to take the modal issue to ARIA?

   <MichaelC> close action-86

   <trackbot> ACTION-86 Create change proposal for ISSUE-133
   [30]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133 closed

     [30] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133


   <trackbot> ACTION-87 -- Gregory Rosmaita to create change proposal
   for ISSUE-134 [31]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/134 --
   due 2011-01-05 -- OPEN

     [31] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/134

   <trackbot> [32]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/87

     [32] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/87

   GJR: Let me do some actions and I'll confirm it's closed to the


   <trackbot> ACTION-90 -- Michael Cooper to do gap analysis between
   embedded content use cases and existing support -- due 2010-12-09 --

   <trackbot> [33]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/90

     [33] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/90


   <trackbot> ACTION-93 -- Gregory Rosmaita to find someone to work on
   change proposal for drag and drop -- due 2011-01-05 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [34]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/93

     [34] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/93

   <MikeSmith> sounds great

   GJR: Saw an email from MS asking Gez Lemon to review new HTML5
   drag/drop info.

   <JF> JF notes that Actions 94 and 95 should be closed


   <trackbot> ACTION-100 -- Janina Sajka to - talk to Laura about
   decoupling of "what" from "where" in preparation for discussion in
   WAI CG -- due 2011-01-20 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [35]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/100

     [35] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/100

   JS: Apologies, I've been remiss on my actions because of other


   <trackbot> ACTION-101 -- Gregory Rosmaita to - email ARIA Caucus to
   request a "modal" attribute for ARIA -- due 2011-01-20 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [36]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/101

     [36] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/101

   <JF> +q

   GJR: It's in progress.


   <trackbot> ACTION-102 -- Janina Sajka to - draft request for
   reconsideration on Issue-30 -- due 2011-01-20 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [37]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/102

     [37] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/102

   JF: Actions 94/95 should be closed?

   MC: I skipped them so they can be dealt with under the media sub

   JS: I would have closed them yesterday, but for a blip with zakim.

   MC: They're closed now.

Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage

   JS: Please, in your group meetings consider issues we should focus
   on at the face to face meeting.
   ... If we can plan in advance we may be able to get people from
   other WGs to drop in (as we did at TPAC).

   SF: ARIA mappings, we had a meeting last Tuesday and discussed
   proposals put forward by HTML Editors.

   <oedipus> GJR: need feedback on CANVAS from Frank Oliver of MS and
   David Bolter (mozilla) to discuss CANVAS issues -- Rich otherwise ok
   with progress of spec text and engineering

   SF: Due to the new bugs that have just gone in with regards to
   integrating ARIA role mappings, we think the form will change.
   ... For example, in our proposal we have a table that has everything
   in it, the editors version has two tables, so our approach will be
   to leave it as two tables.

   JF: Media, attendance on our calls has been light.
   ... There remains two/three ouststanding issues. How do we associate
   secondary media content with primary media content.
   ... Related is the question of how e keep things in sync.

   <oedipus> for latest drafts of canvas materials, consult the agenda
   for this week's meeting (3 attachements)

     [38] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011JanMar/0035.html


     [39] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/PosterElement

   JF: We've also discussed my proposal for video poster in detail.
   ... The solution is that any image that is painted to the screen is
   essentially part of the video, so any attribs relevant to that image
   are part of the video.

   <oedipus> abbr expansion, too

   JF: I feel that stronger attributes may be needed in some
   circumstances. If we move it to a child element of video we can add
   things like lang attribute etc.

   <oedipus> a11y AND i18n issues

   JS: I think there seems to be disagreement on where/how it should be
   captured, rather than whether it should be captured.
   ... If we come up with more examples of what we want to capture and
   offer more markup suggestions on how we could capture them.

   JF: We concluded the discussion by agreeing we needed more use cases
   and sample code.
   ... If anyone is interested in helping with this, I'd welcome that.

   <oedipus> PFWG RESOLUTION (2011-01-26): PFWG has determined that a
   mechanism for user and programmaticly determined discoverability of
   the metadata attached to video is a requirement for HTML5's <video>

   <oedipus> under 48 hour CfC

   MC: Bug triage, we feel like we're winding down a little bit because
   of the stage of bug filing the WG is at.
   ... There are still a number of bugs we'd previously identified had
   a need for more information to be provided, and two have been
   assigned to people.
   ... We talked this week about temporarily slowing down our work
   until the next major bug filing opportunity comes up.

   JF: Could we use the face to face meeting to recap some of the bugs?

   MC: We could perhaps make better use of the time then to look at
   bugs that still need attention.

   <oedipus> [40]http://www.w3.org/2011/01/aria-lexical-processing

     [40] http://www.w3.org/2011/01/aria-lexical-processing

   SF: Three bugs have been filed relating to ARIA mapping. The effect
   of these will be to more tightly integrate ARIA into HTML5.
   ... Is this something we expect will happen before last call?

   JS: We'd like to try to get it in before last call.

   <MikeSmith> I'm here

   JS: We're looking at whether we can elevate this to the chairs.


     [41] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/comments/details?comment_id=18

   JS: There was an issue arising out of ARIA moving to CR. It became a
   formal objection.
   ... The issue involves other people/things such as SVG.

Face to Face Agenda Discussion

Issue-30 longdesc Redux

   <oedipus> my concern was that role not defined in HTML5 so can't say
   role="presentation" is kosher when missing @alt because is
   unspecified in HTML5

   GJR: Based on our discussion last week, SF has taken this in hand.
   ... The biggest problem with the survey is that role isn't currently
   defined as native to HTML5.

   JS: Does anyone really feel they would like to contribute to the

   JF: I'm confused about what the issue is. If we're talking about
   alt, doesn't this circle back to the change proposal?

   JS: I'm trying to get a decision/consensus on what we should do.

   JF: I think there would be use in us looking at the proposals in
   depth and perhaps agreeing on a single proposal.
   ... Could the TF say that of the x number of proposals, we generally
   support one?

   JS: To my mind I have trepidations of the wider WG deciding if we
   can't decide.
   ... One sticking point was that SF wasn't sure that labelledby
   should be considered alternative text.

   <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask is this something we should
   recycle to WAI-CG?

   <oedipus> agree about labelledby

   JS: I'd like to figure out the process for discussing this, rather
   than get into discussing it at the moment.

   SF: The other issue is that it's wrong to have ARIA conformance as
   part of HTML5

   JS: Can we take this trending information from the survey and see if
   it maps closely to any one of the change proposals in particular?

   <oedipus> does anyone have a pointer to Laura's compilation page
   with each change proposal in a TABLE

   JS: Would anyone be able to do that analysis?


     [42] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElementSurveyConformaceChoices

   <janina> proposed action Steve to compare our WBS on alternative
   text with the 5 existing change proproposals.

   rssagent make minutes

   rrsagent make minutes

   <janina> Steve to compare our WBS results to the 5 existing change
   proposals on alternative text, looking for best match.

   <oedipus> ACTION: Steve to compare our WBS results to the 5 existing
   change proposals on alternative text, looking for best match.
   [recorded in

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-103 - Compare our WBS results to the 5
   existing change proposals on alternative text, looking for best
   match. [on Steve Faulkner - due 2011-02-03].

   <Stevef> [44]http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/

     [44] http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Steve to compare our WBS results to the 5 existing
   change proposals on alternative text, looking for best match.
   [recorded in

   [End of minutes]

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Scribe.perl diagnostic output

   [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20
Check for newer version at [48]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002

     [48] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/check in on 57 and 58/check in on 157 and 158/
Succeeded: s/interested in this/interested in helping with this/
Succeeded: s/role wasn't defined anywhere/role isn't currently defined
as native to HTML5/
Found Scribe: Leonie_Watson
Inferring ScribeNick: Leonie_Watson
Default Present: +1.510.367.aaaa, Michael_Cooper, Steve_Faulkner, +1.51
0.367.aabb, Gregory_Rosmaita, Eric_Carlson, Janina, +44.117.929.aacc
Present: Eric_Carlson Gregory_Rosmaita Janina Michael_Cooper Steve_Faul
kner Mike_Smith John_Foliot Marco_Ranon Léonie_Watson
Regrets: Laura_Carlson Denis_Boudreau Geoff_Freed Cynthia_Shelly Joshue
_O'Connor Kenny_Johar Silvia_Pfieffer Rich
Agenda: [49]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Ja
Found Date: 27 Jan 2011
Guessing minutes URL: [50]http://www.w3.org/2011/01/27-html-a11y-minute
People with action items: steve

     [49] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jan/0261.html
     [50] http://www.w3.org/2011/01/27-html-a11y-minutes.html

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
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