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minutes: HTML A11y TF Telecon 2011-01-06 [draft]

From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 17:43:32 +0000
To: public-html-a11y@w3.org
Message-Id: <20110106174153.M80753@hicom.net>

minutes from the 2011-01-06 HTML A11y TF telecon are available as
hypertext at:


as an IRC log at:


and as plain text following this announcement -- as usual, please
report any errors, omissions, clarifications and the like by 
replying-to this announcement on-list...

IMPORTANT REMINDER: next week's HTML5 A11y TF meeting starts an hour 
earlier -- at 1500h -- and will last for 2 hours (until 1700h UTC);

PLEASE NOTE: while there were no new ACTION ITEMS assigned at the 
2011-01-06 telecon, TF members are asked to check the HTML A11y TF's
tracker to locate outstanding action items and to complete them as 
soon as possible, optimally, well in advance of next week's 2 hour 




                             - DRAFT -

            HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

06 Jan 2011


  See also: IRC log - http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-html-a11y-irc


         John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Gregory_Rosmaita, Mike, Janina,
         Léonie_Watson, Michael_Cooper, Cynthia_Shelly, Rich,
         Marco_Ranon, Mike_Smith, Janina_Sajka, Leonie_Watson

         Kenny_Johar, Denis_Boudreau, Silvia_Pfieffer, Laura_Carlson,




    * Topics
        1. f2f planning
        2. Next week's meeting
        3. Subteam reports
        4. Longdesc/Verbose Descriptor
        5. Overdue Open Actinos
    * Summary of Action Items

  <trackbot> Date: 06 January 2011



  <MikeSmith> f2f survey current results - 

  <Leonie_Watson> scribe: Leonie_Watson

f2f planning


  <oedipus> GJR will not be at CSUN but will attend virtually

  <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/q1-2011_ftf/

Next week's meeting

  <inserted> scribenick: oedipus

  next week on 2011-01-13 we will convene at 1500h UTC, one hour
  earlier than usual

Subteam reports

  JF: please try and get agenda out early so can plan around meeting

  <MikeSmith> Media subteam minutes

  JF: reviewed bugs marked media -- good progress -- some can close,
  some are more specifically addressed later in cycle (old bugs
  reformulated as new bugs with more specifity) -- didn't clear entire
  list, but did about 70 to 80 percent processed

  JS: identifying gaps in reqs media subgroup generated -- a bit more
  tweaking to document as people return from holiday break

  MS: number of deadlines coming up -- is media subgroup on track or
  need to request more time on any of these issues?

  JF: pretty much on track -- going to be tight -- can give better
  answer next week

  JS: think pretty much on track -- somethings being deferred --
  forming a group to define WebSRT, working with new W3C audio group
  -- mixed bag as to how addressing issues, but are processing issues

  JF: ... 2 or 3 outstanding issues
  ... 1. multimedia support in content (sign-language, multi-language
  ... 2. @poster "discussion"
  ... most everything else taken as far as can -- timestamp issue
  deferral -- identified gaps, but not our place to fill gaps

  MS: for prioritizing, biggest issue that need to work on immediately
  is "track" concept
  ... don't know current state of things with implementors, but think
  leaning towards trying to get multimedia support in sooner, rather
  than later, so need to push on this -- means significant changes to
  spec that need to be added before CR
  ... has some potential to block progress to LC

  JF: high on list of priorities
  ... not everyone on call yesterday
  ... will be turning time and attention to issues i identified

  MS: good -- other sub team reports -- canvas?

  RS: over break, had a lot of RTE issues (spelling and grammar
  checking in canvas editor) -- lot of pushback from WHATWG people
  saying don't want to expose that info from javascript API because of
  security reasons
  ... ARIA 1.0 has markup to indicate "invalid" -- never thought about
  applying them to whole ranges of text in doc; can do also for
  ... instead of worrying about what allow and don't allow, need to
  tweak ARIA 1.1 to expose info in markup -- better fit for clooud
  computing -- user shouldn't be limited in RTE experience by
  limitations of HTML5
  ... waiting to hear back from FrankO (MS) review of caret and

  <MikeSmith> canvas subteam minutes from 2010-12-20

  RS: FrankO hasn't been able to make meetings for over a month, and i
  can't get in touch with him -- what can be allowed inside canvas

  <MikeSmith> canvas subteam minutes from 2010-12-20

  RS: sticky point -- spoke with AISquared (screen mag) -- discussion
  on public-canvas-api@w3.org
  ... AISquared makes ZoomText

  MS: getting them on board very important

  RS: working on that -- made a lot of progress despite lack of people




  RS: did we discuss modifications to aria implementation section with
  ARIA going to CR?

  MC: not in this context
  ... ARIA going to CR -- addressing concerns about processing -- need
  to be addressed in HTML, not ARIA, but still in flux

  <MikeSmith> canvas-api discussions from 2010-12

  RS: Cyns and i need to work on text for spec

  MS: any heads up for HTML WG chairs?

  RS: not at moment -- wait until have discussion on friday

  MC: correct

  MS: bug triage update?

  MC: summary: holidays affected subteam as other groups; been trying
  to stay on-top-of new bugs and bugs that keep coming to attentino as
  potentially needing TF attention -- alot bassed on LauraC's work
  ... trying to keep stuff off TF plate -- agree with issue, but not
  entire TF needs to address; recommend bug filer follow up on their
  ... marked bugs as TF priorities if related to work already being
  conducted in TF
  ... add keywords and assign to leader of subteams

  <JF> +q

  MC: not much on "NEEDSINFO" -- assigning out to filer -- aware of
  february deadline on bug filing that affects subteam

  MR: next meeting is tuesday, should have full compliment of people

  JF: observed on media call yesterday that alot of bugs marked
  "NEEDSINFO" which is inaccurate -- if "NEEDSINFO" not resolved...

  MC: that is artifact of how bugzilla system works -- "NEEDSINFO" in
  resolved state with qualifier
  ... if marked as "VERIFIED" or "CLOSED" still technically open --
  moved off editor's plate back to WG
  ... when hixie bounces back bug, should assign to original filer --
  parhaps not getting reassigned
  ... triage ST has reassigned a lot of "CLOSED" and "VERIFIED"

  MS: updated W3C bugzilla per request -- still long way to go

  HTML5 Bug 10525 - Please try to improve Bugzilla's
  accessibility/usability problems before Last Call

  GJR: please add issues with bugzilla to bug 10525
  http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10525 master bug
  for bugzilla related bugs

Longdesc/Verbose Descriptor

  <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30

  MS: chairs chose not to include in spec as obsolete or deprecated
  (obsolete but conforming")
  ... when chairs made decision on behalf of WG on this, decision went
  ahead with formal objection from Leif
  ... don't have any particular time-pressure to follow up with new
  ... have until doc goes to director for some decision for doc
  transition; there is time to have further discussion on this

  JS: PFWG examined this yesterday -- spent time on wiki page GJR and
  LC put together -- info great start -- compelling use cases and
  requirements -- need additional implementation details

  <JF> +q

  GJR: i filed a bug with just the requirements

  JS: Laura tracking usage; JF has done a lot of work on
  implementation and correspondence with devs

  <MikeSmith> http://www.pearson.com/

  JS: is being used by content creators in useful way
  ... table for support in UA and AU

  GJR: has action item from PFWG to add implementation on longdesc

  JS: plugin for mozilla for longdesc; need to know about IE and
  Webkit; Opera supports but device-dependently
  ... need to document IE, FF, Webkit and support in ATs in second

  <JF> Opera supports the exposure of longdesc content in the
  right-click context menu today

  JS: cyns trying to find out for IE -- need someone to follow up on

  MS: EricC or JamesC can help

  EC: i can help
  ... JamesC would know off top of his head

  JS: will send email to James Craig asking for details on webkit --
  if no reply, ping EricC and he will track down info

  <JF> +q

  MS: have a bit of time due to process to address this -- shouldn't
  rush -- should be well-formed and terse when submmitted

  GJR: i filed a bug on the requirements alone

  JF: no response from chairs as to where they perceive shortcomings
  -- given many implementation details, but get no traction in HTML WG
  -- how define "rapid growth"? being supported by CMS (Drupal 7)
  Wordpress, etc
  ... specifically gave response -- taking it at face value and asking
  for clarification which has not been forthcoming

  JS: one argument was "no one is using this" or "used in small way,
  mostly incorrectly"

  GJR: this was something specifically added to HTML4 for

  JF: google stats used against us, but that misses the point

  JS: probably never going to be high -- quantatitive measure never
  the intent nor is it appropriate measure of success; there is an
  identifiable need, support from content providers, UAs, etc. -- that
  is what needs to be considered, not overall market penetration --

  GJR filed a bug on the requirements alone

  JS: verbose descriptor is a need that has not been filled by HTML5

  <JF> Revisiting this Issue

  <JF> This issue can be reopened if new information come up. Examples
  of possible relevant new information include:

  <JF> * use cases that specifically require longdesc,

  <JF> * evidence that correct usage is growing rapidly and that that
  growth is expected to continue, or

  <JF> * widespread interoperable implementation.

  JS: supporting existing components: isn't important to build new
  mechanism in HTML5 context because need to support existing
  deployements out there no matter what -- removing entirely is wrong
  ... people need to know what to use TODAY, as well as what is coming
  down the pike


  MS: burden of proof -- not productive use of time to point out flaws
  in specific decision making
  ... not helpful to point out to chairs that there are oversights
  they have been asked to reconsider; comes down to don't have veto
  power over HTML WG chairs decisions on behalf of chairs; task of
  charis is to adjudicate decisions; how they do that is up to them,
  ... shouldn't second guess chairs' decision -- we've been over
  details except for coming up with better arguments
  ... chairs did not feel that info provided by TF and PF met thjeir
  quality standards

  <JF> +q

  MS: point out to chairs that missed something and let them decide

  GJR: what to do when info goes into black hole

  <JF> +1 to GJR

  GJR: fear that being foced into multiple formal objections which
  will not help our cause

  MS: don't have ability to compell chairs to give more feedback on
  any issuye
  ... chairs in position to adjudicate -- combative approach not

  JS: formal objection is not a remedy that is readily at hand
  ... if need to file Formal Objection, addressed when director
  reviews for CR -- have to use what remedies exist -- if not getting
  adeqate response, need to document that because is part of basis of
  formal obgjection, but FO today, just going to cause more heat than
  ... will Formally Object should it be necessary
  ... deadline is 6 monts off; have to use mechanisms avaiable today
  and document previous and new requests

  MC: 2 classes of issues: 1) dealt with but not to TF satisfaction;
  2) issues coming down pike (can request clarification for this to
  make better proposals for future

  JF: need clarification

  MS: no! no! no! not productive

  JF: clarification from chairs?

  MS: can request, but can't force them to respond

  JF: i have asked for clarification and have not received it -- can
  TF ask for clarification on these points from chairs -- give3n 3

  JS: agendum for next meeting -- overtime already
  ... JF please send email about this topic to public-html-a11y

Overdue Open Actinos

  <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/overdue

  MS: some overdue for a while, please take look at list of actions
  and complete those assigned to them
  ... at least put comments into tracker if have new info
  ... start off with actions next week during 2 hour call

  LW: @title -- SteveF put together change proposal while i have
  action to write one -- talked with Steve about it, pretty

  MS: post to public-html-a11y for review

  MS: REMINDER--next week meeting starts an hour earlier
  (1500h) and lasts for 2 hours


Summary of Action Items

  [End of minutes]

Received on Thursday, 6 January 2011 17:44:19 UTC

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