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minutes: HTML A11y TF Telecon, 2009-01-23 [resend]

From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 17:24:57 +0000
To: public-html-a11y@w3.org
Message-Id: <20091203172304.M51435@hicom.net>

apologies for disseminating the wrong minutes -- i was trying to listen
to the HTML WG telecon as i wrapped the minutes, and inadvertantly 
copied and pasted the wrong text file into the body of my previous

minutes from the initial HTML Accessibility Task Force teleconference
are available as hypertext from:


and as in IRC log at:


and as plain text following my signature -- please log any corrections,
clarifications, comments and the like by replying-to this announcement 

thanks to all who participated, gregory.

                                   - DRAFT -

                 HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

03 Dec 2009

   See also: IRC log [http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-pf-irc]


          +1.408.307.aadd, +1.512.206.aabb, +1.650.862.aaaa,
          +49.693.650.5.aacc, AllanJ, Cooper, Geoff_Freed,
          Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina, John_Foliot, Jon_Gunderson,
          Joshue_O_Connor, Markku_Hakkinen, Martin_Kliehm, RichS, Stevef,

          Aurélien_Levy, Cynthia_Shelly, Gez_Lemon, Kelly_Ford,
          Laura_Carlson, Maciej_Stachowiak, Stephane_Deschamps,
          Sylvia_Pfeiffer, Wendy_Chisholm, chaals




     * Topics
         1. Getting Acquainted
         2. Participation & Expectations
         3. TF Subgroups (Canvas; Video; ...) Procedures Discussion
         4. Existing Issues Prioritization -- What? Who? When?
         5. Upcomming Meetings
     * Summary of Action Items

   <trackbot> Date: 03 December 2009

   <scribe> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

   <scribe> ScribeNick: oedipus

   standing regrets for 1600h UTC thursdays: Laura_Carlson, Gez_Lemon,

   <eric_carlson> 408 is eric_carlson

   the church of the subgenius

   JS: cofacillitator from PFWG, MikeSmith facillitator from HTML WG,
   Michael Cooper staff contact for TF

Getting Acquainted

   JS: goal: sense of what we should be working on through january and in
   what order

   <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon

   <janina> agenda: this

   JS: janina sajka
   ... please state name before speaking during first few meetings

   <jongunderson> I was disconnected from the bridge twice

   JS: there are a number of people who cannot join call

   standing regrets for 1600h UTC thursdays: Laura_Carlson, Gez_Lemon,

   JS: wasn't time that worked for everybody - will take stock of meeting
   attendance weekly
   ... if need to adjust meeting date/time, can do, but will try
   thursdays at 1600h UTC

Participation & Expectations

   JS: will introduce topics and open for discussion
   ... should expect that co-facillitators will rotate as far as chairing

   <scribe> chair: Janina_Sajka

   JS: participants primarily drawn from PF and HTML WGs but are own
   ... establishing TF identity - not PF nor HTML, but HTML A11y Task
   ... co-facillitators and staff contact have had discussion - want to
   lay out what is expected of participants
   ... expect those here to be ACTIVE participants
   ... here to participate in decisions and discussions that will lead to
   HTML specs that adequately support a11y -- raison d'etre
   ... participate in telecons as able, through email, through wiki



   JS: policy for TF re: good standing - based on participation
   ... co-facilliltators working on draft of good standing
   ... point is not to be bureaucratic, but efficient
   ... solutions-oriented work
   ... asked to create task force from PF - HTML WG agreed and offered to
   ... point: expedite accessibility issues, concerns, bugs, etc.
   ... brief statement about expectations on how TF members will conduct
   themselves; we are all professionals, so please conduct self with
   ... keep discussions and debates on the issues and specific
   ... avoid personalities and focus on solutions and concrete

   MS (MikeSmith)

   MS: good summation

   JS: quick thumbnail of good standing process
   ... will finish draft and send to html-a11y list for review and
   consensus at next thursday's meeting

   MC (Michael Cooper)

   MC: using W3C "good standing" process as closely to letter of W3C
   process as possible
   ... good standing = participation in some form at least once every 2
   ... number of channels TF uses
   ... email list, wiki,
   ... if not at telecon, reading/reviewing minutes
   ... important to keep all hands busy since fortunate enough to have
   such a large response
   ... if people aren't able to be active, will be marked as "not in good
   standing" -- effect: 1 marked as not in good standing, cannot make
   objection to decisions if not in good standing
   ... only participants in good standing can make decisions
   ... important to be in good standing in order to have voice in TF
   ... if conflicts arise, let the co-facillitators and staff contact
   ... to restore good standing, all one need do is participate in TF

   JS: questions?
   ... will conduct ourselves as the professionals we are
   ... TF evolving its own procedures; one aspect how to reach decisions
   ... can start with W3C consensus policies
   ... when not unanimous on specific approach, need to figure out how to
   reach decision of group in such cases; not simple majority voting, but
   ... think we can take time to figure out as TF members become more
   familiar with one another
   ... can develop own decision-making processes -- keep in mind, that it
   is an evolving process

   HTML A11y Task Force Home Page:

   HTML A11y Task Force Work Statement:

   JS: will make decisions in teleconferences as PFWG does; will NOT make
   major decisions -- those will be covered by email solicitations (24-48
   hour "heartburn" check)

   s/major decisions.../major decisions at teleconferences. at

   JS: if participant has needs special needs (interpreters for deaf, for
   example) will make every attempt to support participation
   (interpreters, etc.) -- will be working on decisioning process, this
   telecon is part of that
   ... goal: to hear from all interested/affected parties

   MS: important that TF members know how decision making policy vis a
   vis telecon recording resolutions and decisions

   JS: questions? comments?

   [none logged]

TF Subgroups (Canvas; Video; ...) Procedures Discussion

   JS: adopting a sub-group that pre-exists A11y TF -- canvas sub-team
   led by RichS of IBM
   ... also adopting another group which is in process of organizing,
   which is sub-team dealing with media issues
   ... accessibility for multimedia on HTML5
   ... JohnF and DaveS did great presentation in advance of TPAC 2009
   ... expectations for sub-groups: you are on your own - can have own
   teleons (as canvas does)
   ... might be useful for media subgroup to have own list and
   ... canvas already having own telecons

   <dsinger_> We organized an informal meeting prior to Tpac, no
   presentation at Tpac

   JS: might need to invite experts for particular discussions
   ... tracker - can add "products" pegged to topics
   ... for W3C process -- on wiki, have a minimal work statement for each
   sub-teacm for wiki -- this is what this sub-group is about and this is
   what its goals and timeline and work plan is

   RS (RichS)

   RS: most a11y people will be tied up until monday (publication of new
   ARIA draft)

   JS: would like to get subgroup descriptions, etc on wiki by end of

   SF (Steve Faulkner)

   SF: when decide about formation of sub-groups in addition to canvas
   and multimedia

   <JF> Does Steve have an idea for another Sub Group?

   JS: as prioritize issues, should shake out into a work plan -- may
   decide during review of issues to spawn supgroup if necessary

   <Joshue> +q

   JOC (Joshue O Connor)

   JOC: if any groups that want me for any issue, please do because i
   have some open time right now

   <Joshue> lol

Existing Issues Prioritization -- What? Who? When?

   JS: facillitators and staff contact thought that ARIA-mapping may be
   one area
   ... what to do with @alt
   ... @summary
   ... brainstorm roadmap of what to attack when

   GJR: need to ascertain what from HTML5 has been implemented

   <Joshue> GJR: One means of prioritising is that we need to know what
   parts of HTML are being implemented etc so we can anticipate any

   <JF> +1 GJR

   <Joshue> GJR: Our work should be mapped to HTML in the wild

   JS: used keywords in HTML5 bugzilla to identify accessiblity related
   issues - keyword: a11y


   <Joshue> -q

   <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say that there are other
   implementations to consider other than just browsers

   MS: agree with GJR's point about addressing issues vis a vis
   implementation of features in order to prioritize discussions for this
   group; not just browsers that are important -- conformance checkers -
   no conformance checker other than validator.nu
   ... one reason why we should try to make ARIA mappings a priority
   because waiting on validator.nu to get resolution on this so can
   change schema to align with consensus opinion on integration/mapping
   ... sooner we can get that done and forward to HTML WG for resolution
   as to what should appear in spec, can then get implementations that
   conform to consensus, feed info to validator.nu and then be able to
   use to check ARIA markup
   ... 2 bug reports this week about ARIA checking at validator.nu
   ... shows interest in ARIA and ARIA support

   GJR: plus 1

   MC: validators driven by schemata of various sorts -- preparing some
   on PF side -- may be orthagonal to core mission of A11y TF
   ... will have schemata available soon for validators -- issues beyond
   conformance checkers, MS?

   MS: need to have an agreement upon what the exact integration of ARIA
   into HTML5 should be
   ... don't have agreement yet, becuase not completed discussion -- need
   documentation and verbiage that we agree upon
   ... what have now is hixie's take on what is appropriate
   ... what is at vallidator.nu is hixie's and some is based on HenriS'
   ... would be good to have it standardized and agreed-upon
   ... need official "line" on ARIA integration - need more sense of
   urgency to get ARIA mapping finallized

   SF: agree with MS' assessment -- been working on this with Cynthia
   Shelly; need input from other people; how lax or strict should it be?
   haven't yet come up with formula for determining laxity or strictness

   <dsinger_> ud

   SF: need to have some dedicated individuals to work on ARIA mappping

   DS (Dave Singer)

   DS: what is on topic for this group and what is not on topic for this
   group -- clarify impact on HTML5 spec; textual changes, material that
   will impact other W3C specifications

   <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to distinguish ARIA integration from ARIA

   MC: ARIA-integration - building ARIA into HTML5 spec
   ... ARIA-mapping - how ARIA features map to accessibility APIs and how
   HTML5 handles those APIs
   ... want to distinguish issues to avoid overlap and misunderstanding

   SF: think we are talking about the same thing
   ... MS and i are talking about the same thing -- ARIA-mapping

   JS: should we resume at this point next thursday (10 december 2009)
   ... any objection to ARIA-integration?

   RS: other issues being addressed, make this priority

   SF: there has been a change proposal submitted by me on @alt


   SF: parts need work
   ... would like to have others to work on change proposal within and
   without A11y TF

   JS: good procedural question: is it necessary to send to both
   public-html and public-html-a11y
   ... procedure is issues kicked our way, TF comes up with proposals,
   which are then submitted to HTML WG, which then through its processes
   decides if acceptable, also pass on to PFWG to ensure recommendations
   meet a11y needs under PFWG's purview
   ... don't deliver final wording - recommendations that -- if worded
   well -- can be adopted wholesale

   MK: mapping doesn't end with ARIA

   <dsinger_> I suggest that we ask ht

   MK: new HTML5 elements not mapped to any a11y APIs -- need

   SF: being looked at by the AAPI task force

   <dsinger_> HTML wg to send non-consensus a11y questions to us and that
   we not cross post until we are done

   JS: not the only joint task force
   ... AAPI been mostly PF participation so far
   ... start with ARIA, finalize alt proposal

Upcomming Meetings

   next 2 months of thursdays at 1600h UTC - upcomming dates: 10 december
   2009, 17 december 2009, 24 december 2009, 31 december 2009, 7 january
   2010, 14 january 2010, 21 january 2010, 28 january 2010, 4 february

   JS: canvas and aapi already working, can help facillitate organization
   for media accessibility -- may be separate telecon -- participation in
   any subgroup equals participation in the TF
   ... propose we skip last 2 thursdays of december


   <MikeSmith> sounds good to me

   RESOLUTION: A11y TF will meet on 10 december 2009 (ARIA), 17 december
   2009 (@alt) resume on 7 january 2010

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 3 December 2009 17:25:32 UTC

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