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Re: [Filter Effects][css3-transforms] Using MathML for formulas

From: Chris Lilley <chris@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 22:03:16 +0200
Message-ID: <1059781956.20120426220316@w3.org>
To: Rik Cabanier <cabanier@gmail.com>
CC: Paul Topping <pault@dessci.com>, Dirk Schulze <dschulze@adobe.com>, <public-fx@w3.org>
On Thursday, April 26, 2012, 6:33:54 PM, Rik wrote:

RC> I haven't seen any replies from the W3C people.

RC> Chris, who would we ask about this?

I'm aware we discourage/forbid external scripts. I don't know if this is a formal policy or an informal one. It came up in the past when a group tried to add Google analytics to a spec to track who had read it (which also conflicts with the W3c privacy policy).

Bert Bos would know more about the specifics of using MathJax in publications and Ted Guild would know if it is a formal policy and if so what the exact rules are. I will ask around for more information and report back.

RC>  Rik

RC> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 4:44 PM, Paul Topping <pault@dessci.com> wrote:
RC> While you certainly can take your own copy of MathJax as it is
RC> open source, the MathJax Consortium does maintain a CDN that many
RC> of its users point their pages at. You can refer to a fixed
RC> version of MathJax in order to control when to move to a new
RC> version and to test it on your own content before going live.
RC> Paul
RC> From: Rik Cabanier [mailto:cabanier@gmail.com] 
RC>  Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 3:56 PM
RC> To: Dirk Schulze
RC> Cc: Paul Topping; public-fx@w3.org

RC> Subject: Re: [Filter Effects][css3-transforms] Using MathML for formulas
RC> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Dirk Schulze <dschulze@adobe.com> wrote:

RC> On Apr 23, 2012, at 2:29 PM, Paul Topping wrote:

>> I'm confused. What script and demo site are you referring to? What does
>> the popup say?
RC>  http://www.mathjax.org/demos/ tested on IE 9 without MathPlayer plugin.

>> MathJax is very configurable, by the way. I understand about your
 >> reluctance to having a W3C spec require JavaScript but, IMHO, one can't
>> do much on the web these days without JS enabled. How many people really
>> run with JS disabled these days anyway?
RC> I totally agree. But something that applies to general websites
RC> doesn't necessarily apply to specifications. Some specifications
RC> are still written in pure ASCII text, just to provide long term
RC> achievement (not at W3C). And JavaScript seems to be one of the
RC> things that belong to this kind of category that might make it
RC> harder to provide long term achievement. I am not sure if the W3C
RC> has any preferences to this topic. However MathJax might be
RC> different, since the content does not necessarily rely on the JS library.
RC> It would be good to know what the W3C policy is.
RC> Obviously, we would have to use our own snapshot of MathJax so we
RC> can be sure that there are no breaking changes.
RC> It would make our lives easier and the specs prettier.
RC>  Rik 

>> Paul

>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Dirk Schulze [mailto:dschulze@adobe.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 2:23 PM
 >>> To: Paul Topping
>>> Cc: Rik Cabanier; public-fx@w3.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Filter Effects][css3-transforms] Using MathML for
>>> formulas

>>> On Apr 23, 2012, at 2:04 PM, Paul Topping wrote:

>>>> Screen readers work with MathPlayer, the IE plugin that my company
>>> gives
>>>> away for free. (I could not tell you which ones and which versions
 >>>> work.) If MathPlayer is installed, IE uses it to display MathML and
>>>> screen readers use it to turn math into text to be spoken. If the
>>> page
>>>> uses MathJax, and MathJax detects IE+MathPlayer, it defers to
 >>> MathPlayer
>>>> to display the math and screen readers will work fine on the math.

>>> I know MathPlayer. I just checked MathJax on IE. The problem is that
>>> the script suggest that the MathPlayer plugin is needed to display the
 >>> formulas on the demo site, even if that is obviously not the case! As
>>> much as I like MathPlayer and the output of MathJax, this behavior
>>> seems not to be applicable for a specification of the W3C. It is
 >>> strange that I didn't get a popup on the main page of the project on
>>> the first load. So it looks like this popup can be blocked (without
>>> changes to the code itself)?

>>> Greetings,
 >>> Dirk

>>>> Paul

>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Dirk Schulze [mailto:dschulze@adobe.com]
 >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 1:54 PM
>>>>> To: Paul Topping
>>>>> Cc: Rik Cabanier; public-fx@w3.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Filter Effects][css3-transforms] Using MathML for
 >>>>> formulas

>>>>> I would like to know more about MathJax before I come to a
>>> conclusion
>>>>> for my self. MathJax is a Javascript library. Content in
 >>>> specifications
>>>>> should not rely on JS at all in my eyes.

>>>>> But if I understood it correctly, than you can add formulas in pure
>>>>> MathML and the library would take care about the rendering? It
 >> would
>>>>> still mean that you cannot read the specification on disabled
>>>>> JavaScript and missing MathML support.

>>>>> Is there a benefit to the idea of Aryeh to use CSS and check for
 >> the
>>>>> MathML namespace? My priority is the accessibility. If we can use
>>> pure
>>>>> MathML, the specs might be more accessible. The problem with
>> Aryeh's
>>>>> solution is, that current screenreader don't inspect elements which
 >>>> are
>>>>> not displayed on the screen (e.g display:none). Therefore, on IE
>> the
>>>>> MathML code wouldn't be accessible for screen reader users since
>> the
>>>>> code does not get displayed. Would that be different with MathJax?

>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>> Dirk

>>>>> On Apr 23, 2012, at 1:31 PM, Paul Topping wrote:

>>>>>> It is not as fast as if MathML were supported directly in the
 >>>> browser
>>>>> but JavaScript performance is getting faster all the time. It also
>>>>> depends a lot on what browser you are talking about and what
>> device.
>>>> It
 >>>>> is very fast in IE with MathPlayer installed as it defers to
>>>> MathPlayer
>>>>> to draw the MathML. It is much slower on an iPhone, for example.
>>> Best
>>>>> thing to do is try it on a sample page. There are also links to
 >>> other
>>>>> sites that use MathJax listed on the MathJax site. You might find
>>> some
>>>>> analogous content.

>>>>>> Paul

 >>>>>> From: Rik Cabanier [mailto:cabanier@gmail.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 1:26 PM
>>>>>> To: Paul Topping
 >>>>>> Cc: public-fx@w3.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Filter Effects][css3-transforms] Using MathML for
>>>>> formulas

 >>>>>> This is great! Thanks for pointing this out.
>>>>>> Do you know if the performance is good? Some spec pages are quite
>>>>> long and I think mathjax has to process all the text.

>>>>>> Rik

>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Paul Topping <pault@dessci.com>
 >>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> You may be interested in the MathJax project (www.mathjax.org). It
>>>> is
>>>>> an
>>>>>> open source JavaScript engine for displaying MathML and LaTeX
 >>>>> equations
>>>>>> in all modern web browsers and ebook readers. It essentially fills
>>>>> the
>>>>>> gaps in browser support of MathML.

 >>>>>> Paul Topping
>>>>>> Design Science, Inc.



 Chris Lilley   Technical Director, Interaction Domain                 
 W3C Graphics Activity Lead, Fonts Activity Lead
 Co-Chair, W3C Hypertext CG
 Member, CSS, WebFonts, SVG Working Groups
Received on Thursday, 26 April 2012 20:03:22 UTC

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