W3C Forms teleconference January 5, 2011

* Present

Steven Pemberton, CWI/W3C (chair)
Alain Couthures, AgenceXML
Leigh Klotz, Xerox (minutes)
Philip Fennell, MarkLogic
Nick van den Bleeken, Inventive Designers
Erik Bruchez, Orbeon
John Boyer, IBM
Uli Lissé, DreamLabs

* Agenda


* Previous Minutes

* Action Items and Tracker

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Dec/0012.html http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/xforms/

Steven Pemberton: I've removed action items done by others, or with nobody.
Steven Pemberton: Please look at them and update yours so we can focus on a couple next week.

* IJCAI-11 CFP (Michael Chan)


Leigh Klotz: Does this need action?
Steven Pemberton: It's sponsored by W3C and others.
Steven Pemberton: Perhaps they sent it to all groups.
Leigh Klotz: Kurt might be interested, but he's not here today.

* New last call for CSS 2.1


Steven Pemberton: Stricter error recovery, no absolute units except in print, font family names, changes in XHTML and whitespace. Do we feel we want to review this? No? CSS 2.1 has been so long, and nobody's been able to reference 2.1. We do want it to be a standard. I'll take a look at it but I don't think we need to review it.

* select1 and empty items

John Boyer: If there is a select1 item whose value element produces an empty string, we treat it as matching the empty string in the data. In our implementation it's hard to tell if you have a minimal appearance, however with appearance=full it's easy to see that. The testing I did, I made sure we weren't getting defaulting behavior, so I made the empty item in the middle of a list to make sure it didn't default to the first or last. When I selected an item in one select1 it would change the other to the middle; it's clear that it was working with empty values.
Steven Pemberton: I'm assuming we all agree this is reasonable behavior. It seems like setting a value is just as valid as anything else.
John Boyer: For the select1 case, it seems like it would be possible to have a data value empty. If separately required MIP or a schema forbids it, that's a form design issue.
Steven Pemberton: There's the weird case of select.
John Boyer: It's easier; the user can go back and pick something.
Steven Pemberton: What do we say about initialization? Does the empty item get pre-selected?
John Boyer: That's what happens in my implementation. There's no way to tell if it's the empty data template or data being presented previously filled out.
Steven Pemberton: Just checking. So this is an erratum, or a clarification at least.
Leigh Klotz: I think it's an erratum.
John Boyer: It's hard to tell if it's an erratum or a clarification.
Steven Pemberton: But if we're changing the meaning.
John Boyer: Either way, it's an erratum.
Steven Pemberton: It sounds like you've worked quite hard on this, John. Do you want to do the initial draft?
John Boyer: Sure.
Steven Pemberton: If anyone's against it, please take up now.

Resolution 2011-01-5.1: We accept the erratum that empty string as matching an empty item in select1 in XForms 1.1.

ACTION-1760 John Boyer to produce the erratum that empty string as matching an empty item in select1 in XForms 1.1.

* XForms 1.1 load erratum Awaiting move to XForms 1.1 wikispec erratum


Steven Pemberton: This looks like a typo we found converting to wikispec. It needs to be marked as an error in the spec itself.

ACTION-1761 Add two wikispec errata to the eratta document

* JavaScript XQuery library


Leigh Klotz: JavaScript compilation is fast these days. This gives us XQuery 1.0 and hence XPath 2.0 in the browser in JavaScript for XSLTForms and Ubiquity. So this makes XPath 2.0 a reality.
Erik Bruchez: And Mike Kay has announced compiling Saxon with XSLT into JavaScript.
Steven Pemberton: So including XPath 2.0 in XForms gets a higher priority.
Erik Bruchez: Is Alain interested?
Alain Couthures: It's interesting and it's already done. I'm also looking at XPath 2.0 libraries, for scripts and XQuery Update.
Nick van: Interesting, they let you update the dom http://www.xqib.org/js/SetStyle.html
Leigh Klotz: This will bring attention to XML in the browser and we may be able to leverage that with demos and announcements.

Steven Pemberton: I don't recall what we decided about XPath 2.0. I thought we hadn't put it in and had said XForms 2.0. Am I right?
John Boyer: No.
Erik Bruchez: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Category:XForms12
Erik Bruchez: It's in the list of candidates. We haven't committed but my understanding is that whichever modules get sponsored will move forward.
Steven Pemberton: Do we have two implementations?
Nick van: Orbeon, Chiba/BetterForms, modulo some corner cases.
Steven Pemberton: So creating the test cases is teh work.
Leigh Klotz: And the data type compatibility.
Nick van: And functions that return new content.
John Boyer: And an attribute or some other way to indicate from the get-go that XPath 2 is being used.
Erik Bruchez: XSLT WG is doing a 3.0 rev of XPath and XQuery and XSLT.
Leigh Klotz: It's a rename of 2.1.
Erik Bruchez: Yes, it's not as major a change as 1.0 to 2.0. But they have new things like first-class functions.
Leigh Klotz: Didn't we ask for first-class functions and they said no?
Erik Bruchez: Not quite. But we can check. It's good for custom functions.
Leigh Klotz: Which is what Alain mentioned.

Steven Pemberton: Who is the main champion for XPath 2.0?
Nick van: That's me. I already generated the functions in XPath 2.0 syntax; there are some to-do items I'm picking up.
Steven Pemberton: We can plan a meeting around XPath 2.0.
Nick van: The problem is I'll be on a week's vacation in two weeks, so after that.

* JSON Serialization / Badgerfish


Alain Couthures: I've already implemented it in XSLTForms with the Wikipedia JSON example and I've written the paper.
Leigh Klotz: The message lists a lot of issues: vCard, CSV, XML namespace rewriting, etc.. When will the paper be published?
Alain Couthures: At XML Prague. I'm submitting the abstract.
Steven Pemberton: Will we have to wait or can we get an early version?
Alain Couthures: I'll have to discuss it with them.

* W3C HTML/XML Task Force

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Dec/0034.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2011Jan/0001.html Report from Alain Couthures or Kurt Cagle?

Leigh Klotz: Kurt replied under the misleading subject "Re: Agenda for 2011-01-04".
Steven Pemberton: Alain, what is the aim?
Alain Couthures: It's about XML and HTML on the same page and how to deal with it, what parsers should do (wrong or not), with and without namespaces, etc. It's a difficult thread to follow. People feel the situation whether they should use content types with text/html etc. I don't see very clearly what progress there is yet.
Nick van: They are still trying to figure out what they're trying to do first and are trying to brainstorm. Now they're trying to find use cases; they've identified a couple and are arguing about whether they're good. People are brining in new information and harvesting use cases.
Steven Pemberton: This group does have a telephone call.
Nick van: They've had two calls.
Erik Bruchez: It looks like the changes being discussed are mostly on the XML side. We had a limited call a few weeks ago with Kurt and Leigh on this topic. One question we had was embedding XML in HTML. Based on what I've seen, it seems there is a major problem. If you want to have an HTML5 with XML islands, it's going to work in some cases, but in other cases, the parser will change the layout of your XML document. If it were possible to embed XML in HTML with structure preserved, that would be good. The MathML have some issues. I don't know if they will get to a solution. The point where it boils is that "it's always been this way."
Nick van: They made it worse in HTML5. It's now already in two browsers. There are more tags closed or inserted.
Erik Bruchez: It seemed like there was an idea that it had been there forever; there was a comment in webkit that it's getting worse. So it's hard to understand what changes are happening or are possible. It's good some of the XML folks are paying attention.
Nick van: Now there are some constructs breaking of "collateral damage" for recovery rules. It affects us mostly with HTML in a label. If we use a <p>, then <b> will break out of the </label>.
Steven Pemberton: Why?
Erik Bruchez: label is an inline element.
Steven Pemberton: Our word label clashes with their word label?
Nick van: label inside a p, for example. You can't nest p elements. It automatically extracts everything and closes the elements.
Erik Bruchez: One issue with MathML was that if you had elements that looked like HTML inside the MathML they got moved around. It's a general issue with vocabularies: you can't do it reliably; you can't allow nesting in certain cases.
Nick van: A table with a tr will generate a tbody, to make CSS selectors work.
Erik Bruchez: It's a shame. Moving around in the DOM has been there forever, but it's gotten worse as you said by being made clearer. If you use the XHTML serialization you don't have those issues. If you're telling people that if they want to use MathML or XForms or something new cool and with vocabularies and JavaScript they need to generate compliant XHTML, it's a huge barrier to entry. It would be good if you could use the HTML serialization.
Nick van: You have to set the content-type to application/xml, because otherwise it will think it's text/html.
Erik Bruchez: It's not as well supported as the HTML parser. Firefox can't do progressive rendering in the XML parser. It's supposed to happen soon. There's a good case to be made for trying to understand if the things that appear to be missing in HTML can be fixed. If really it's inevitable that the custom markup people can't be satisfied and everyone is convinced that the course cannot be changed, perhaps something can be done.
Leigh Klotz: So the problem doesn't happen with the application/xhtml+xml parser?
Nick van: Almost everything should work but you have to specify the content-type.
Leigh Klotz: It may be that content type starts working; they've been pushing this for years, I think maybe Anne van Kesteren has talked about it for years. So maybe they will get the content-type stuff to work and be widely adopted.
Steven Pemberton: So that could be a success.

Steven Pemberton: So Leigh asked if we should have representation on this task force. Are we happy just being on the mailing list? Do we want teleconference representation?
Nick van: I'm watching it; Alain and Kurt are participating.
Steven Pemberton: Do we want to be on the phone call?
Leigh Klotz: Do we have a position statement?
Nick van: We can wait until they are done with use cases?
Leigh Klotz: Can we send in our use cases?
Nick van: The most important want is embedding XML in HTML and they list it. They also have XML toolchain for XHTML5 documents.
Steven Pemberton: So we're happy for now but we're happy not to be involved yet.
Nick van: Raman is also a part of the task force; he's not on the call.

* Next Week

Leigh Klotz: Can we discuss XPath 2.0 next week?
Steven Pemberton: Nick said he can't do it next week.
Leigh Klotz: Can we just remidn ourselves of the issues?
Steven Pemberton: Sure.
Nick van: I'll try to have a list of issues but I'm not sure I can.

* IRC Minutes


* Meeting Ends