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Re: [Proposal][SKOS-Core] skos:denotes

From: Dave Reynolds <der@hplb.hpl.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:05:18 +0100
Message-ID: <4173955E.5010703@hplb.hpl.hp.com>
To: "Miles, AJ (Alistair) " <A.J.Miles@rl.ac.uk>
Cc: public-esw-thes@w3.org

The broad proposal is fine by me. I just have some reservations about this bit:

 > (3) Add a new property 'skos:denotesIndividual' to SKOS Core, with domain
 > skos:Concept and range rdf:Resource, *as a sub-property of
 > skos:denotesSameAs*.

Leonard Will said that thesaurus concepts, and thus presumably skos 
concepts, are never individuals but can be classes with one member.

This would suggest that skos:denotesIndividual is either not required or 
should not be a sub-property of skos:denotesSameAs. Rather the nearest 
equivalent would be "denotesTheClassComprisingThisIndividual" - well 
perhaps a shorter name :-) but that sentiment.

Dave

Miles, AJ (Alistair) wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Although Danbri had me convinced [1], I found Dave R's argument compelling
> [2].  Both points of view seem good to me, or at least appropriate under a
> particular set of circumstances.
> 
> So here's an attempt to accommodate both points of view ... what if we do
> the following:
> 
> (1) Add a new property 'skos:denotesSameAs' to SKOS Core, which is
> *symmetric* and which carries essentially the same semantics as
> skos-map:exactMatch.
> 
> (2) Add a new property 'skos:denotesClass' to SKOS Core, with domain
> skos:Concept and range rdfs:Class, *as a sub-property of
> skos:denotesSameAs*.
> 
> (3) Add a new property 'skos:denotesIndividual' to SKOS Core, with domain
> skos:Concept and range rdf:Resource, *as a sub-property of
> skos:denotesSameAs*.
> 
> So (1) establishes the underlying ontological commitment that a skos:Concept
> sits at the same level of abstraction as an RDFS/OWL Class/Individual.
> However, (2) and (3) allow the *directionality* of such a relationship to be
> captured, where that is required.
> 
> Er, re-reading that it back to myself, it sounds potentially a little shaky,
> but I'll post this anyway, and hopefully it will stimulate more ideas.
> 
> Al.
> 
> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-esw-thes/2004Sep/0067.html
> [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-esw-thes/2004Oct/0005.html
> 
> 
> ---
> Alistair Miles
> Research Associate
> CCLRC - Rutherford Appleton Laboratory
> Building R1 Room 1.60
> Fermi Avenue
> Chilton
> Didcot
> Oxfordshire OX11 0QX
> United Kingdom
> Email:        a.j.miles@rl.ac.uk
> Tel: +44 (0)1235 445440
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: public-esw-thes-request@w3.org
>>[mailto:public-esw-thes-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Miles, AJ 
>>(Alistair)
>>
>>Sent: 14 October 2004 15:25
>>To: 'Leo Sauermann'; public-esw-thes@w3.org
>>Subject: RE: [Proposal][SKOS-Core] skos:denotes
>>
>>
>>
>>Hi Leo,
>>
>>To answer the easiest question first, the 'traditional' way 
>>to use SKOS
>>concepts is as the values in a subject-based index of 
>>documents.  There is a
>>proposal on the table [1] for a 'skos:subject' property, 
>>which basically
>>behaves in the same way to the 'dc:subject' property, i.e. 
>>you will be able
>>to state:
>>
>><rdf:RDF /*standard namespaces*/>
>>
>>  <rdf:Description rdf:about="http://foo.com/somedoc.html">
>>    <skos:subject rdf:resource="http://bar.com/some#concept"/>
>>  </rdf:Description>
>>
>></rdf:RDF>
>>
>>Of course, there are many other scenarios emerging in which 
>>SKOS concepts
>>can be used (and your use case is expanding the set I had 
>>imagined so far
>>:).  For example, a SKOS concept can be depicted by an image, 
>>or a SKOS
>>concept could be a topic of interest or expertise for a person ...
>>
>>Anyway.  Another set of scenarios (including yours I think) 
>>requires us to
>>be able to express a relationship between a SKOS concept and 
>>an RDFS/OWL
>>Class/Individual that 'intends'/'represents'/'denotes' the 
>>same (or similar)
>>thing.  This requirement was the basis for the original 'skos:denotes'
>>proposal [2] which has been argued for by danbri (see e.g. [3]).
>>
>>However, others have argued that a relationship of meaning 
>>between a SKOS
>>concept and an RDFS/OWL Class/Individual is essentially the same as a
>>mapping relationship between two SKOS concepts (see e.g. 
>>[4]).  Or in other
>>words, there is no difference in the level of abstraction 
>>between a SKOS
>>concept and an RDFS/OWL Class/Individual.  Hence a 
>>'skos:denotes' property
>>is not appropriate.
>>
>>So this debate is currently poised :)  
>>
>>I'm just thinking, perhaps a more detailed description of 
>>your requirements
>>here could help us with this problem ... could you expand a 
>>little on these
>>for us?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Alistair.
>>
>>[1] 
>>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-esw-thes/2004Oct/0081.html
>>[2] 
>>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-esw-thes/2004Sep/0041.html
>>[3] 
>>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-esw-thes/2004Sep/0067.html
>>[4] 
>>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-esw-thes/2004Oct/0005.html
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: public-esw-thes-request@w3.org
>>[mailto:public-esw-thes-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Leo Sauermann
>>Sent: 14 October 2004 09:46
>>To: public-esw-thes@w3.org
>>Subject: Re: [Proposal][SKOS-Core] skos:denotes
>>
>>
>>Danbri:
>>
>>
>>>RDF tries to impose some basic design constraints across 
>>
>>all projects
>>
>>>that use it, to make things easier for data-merging, extensibility
>>>etc. What we're doing with skos:represents (or whatever it gets
>>>called) is coming up with a little add-on that helps SKOS-based RDF
>>>data work better with non-SKOS RDF data.
>>
>>
>>I could not follow the whole discussion, because I began 
>>thinking about skos
>>a week ago
>>http://leobard.twoday.net/stories/360443/
>>
>>My Goal is:
>>
>>I want to build stuctures that are independent of nromal RDF 
>>instances, that
>>means: I want to model things like "Job" 
>>"Private" "ProjectX" and form these things as SKOS:Concepts
>>
>>then I have emails, files, photos, websites, etc that I want 
>>to add to these
>>SKOS:concepts
>>
>>Ideal:
>>SKOS concepts
>>REAL LIFE Resources
>>
>>JOB
>> - Project X
>>     - Meeting 23.10.2004
>> - Project Y
>>Email "skos;denoites"
>>File "skos image"
>>Website "skos website"
>>Website "http://www.w3.org/2001/sw"
>>
>>
>>now I want
>><meeting 23.10.2004> <????> <http://www.w3.org/2001/sw>
>>
>>
>>the problem:
>>You forgot to add somehting to skos that allows to acutally USE skos.
>>A thesaurus /taxonomy/  whatever is only useful when I can link it to
>>external RDF resources,
>>
>>All predicates in SKOS are having domain/range skos Concepts,
>>but SKOS concepts are a closed thing and I want to create 
>>triples from skos
>>to the outer world.
>>The "real" resources out there in the world are of type 
>>email, file, person,
>>vcard, vEvent
>>
>>So, please,
>>tell me which property I have to use to hang real resources to a SKOS
>>concept.
>>is this SKOS:denotes?
>>
>>is it dc:hasPart ?
>>
>>cheers
>>Leo
>>
> 
> 
Received on Monday, 18 October 2004 10:05:27 GMT

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