- From: Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com>
- Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 17:40:45 +0000
- To: Bob Dolan <bob@diverselearnersconsulting.com>
- Cc: Stuart Sutton <stuartasutton@gmail.com>, Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>, public-eocred-schema@w3.org
- Message-ID: <CAD47Kz4ESgLFdhY3-igm4VRTT1e5eJkGTqTaWQqCGazPz-+oVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Good question Bob. It depends… It depends on why you believe that CreativeWork is a good home. If it is because you believe that a *EducationalOccupationalCredential* is some sort of *CreativeWork*, then yes. If it is because *CreativeWork* has many useful properties for describing an *EducationalOccupationalCredential*, then no. I am looking at this from the point of view of seeing an *EducationalOccupationalCredential* as a special sort of [general purpose] *Credential*. Hence my earlier suggestion of a super type. To my mind, a *Credential* could be described as the statement of a set of criteria [academic and/or experience, attendance, participation, validation, membership, etc.] that the awarder/assigner asserts/agrees that the recipient of the Credential has met. As such I don’t see it as being a *CreativeWork. * Following that logic I would see a *Credential* as a subtype of *Intangible* and a super type of *EducationalOccupationalCredential*. *Credential* would contain generally useful properties such as those contained in the Permit <http://schema.org/Permit> type. (IssuedBy, validFrom, validIn, etc.). — You could in fact think of a Credential as a type of Permit or vice versa. (*Thinking in public here, not proposing this!*) ~Richard Richard Wallis Founder, Data Liberate http://dataliberate.com Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis Twitter: @rjw On 10 January 2018 at 17:06, Bob Dolan <bob@diverselearnersconsulting.com> wrote: > Would an acceptable justification for putting > *EducationalOccupationalCredential* under *Creative Work* be the fact > that there simply isn’t a better home? For what it’s worth, just looking > through the Schema.org hierarchy, nothing popped out as a viable > alternative. Maybe *Intangible*? > > Bob > > On Jan 10, 2018, at 11:12 AM, Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@dataliberate. > com> wrote: > > Stuart, I wasn’t saying that *EducationalOccupationalCredential* should > not be a subtype of CreativeWork. I was just highlighting that it is a > proposal we can expect to have to justify to the rest of the Schema.org > community who would probably have a much narrower understanding of what a > *EducationalOccupationalCredential* is. > > As to your questions, about the justifications for other subtypes. > Firstly, I would say that consensus in the community has evolved over time, > as has the significant number of CreativeWork subtypes (it’s looking a bit > messy in that area of the type hierarchy). Personally I would suggest that > all the Types you list are the outcome of individual, or a series of, > creative actions. > > ~Richard. > > Richard Wallis > Founder, Data Liberate > http://dataliberate.com > Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis > Twitter: @rjw > > On 9 January 2018 at 22:41, Stuart Sutton <stuartasutton@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 8:10 AM, Richard Wallis < >> richard.wallis@dataliberate.com> wrote: >> >>> In principle creating an *EducationalOccupationalCredent**ial* type >>> and making it a subtype of *CreativeWork* make sense to me. This is a >>> good start. However the following practical thoughts come to mind: >>> >>> - Just looking at the name *EducationalOccupationalCredent**ial* >>> makes me think that it should have a basic super-type of *Credential* that >>> is not tied to the Educational / Occupational domains. I can already >>> anticipate the questions about marking up some form of general >>> qualification, measure of achievement, recognised membership level, or >>> attendance, that the developer does not consider either educational or >>> occupational. >>> >>> - In practice “*properties like educationalAlignment, audience, >>> offers, provider, hasPart, datePublished, dateModified, expires, creator >>> (and possibly others) will be useful in describing >>> EducationalOccupationalCredentials.*” Is not sufficient reason on >>> its own for minting yet another subtype of CreativeWork. Do we believe >>> such a thing is a type of Creative Work? >>> >>> Richard, I think that if *Course* can be a *CreativeWork*, a case can >> be made for* EducationalOccupationalCredential* being one. They are >> undeniably 'works' that require at least a 'modicum of creativity'. >> >> If we look at the class extension (subtypes) of *CreativeWork >> <http://schema.org/CreativeWork>*, there are no apparent controlling >> attributes that I can see to guide what should be in (or out). So, >> arguments that *EducationalOccupationalCredential* "is" or "isn't" are >> probably equally rudderless. But, if the following subtypes passed muster >> as *CreativeWorks*, I wish someone would fill me in on the common >> characteristics of the class that made it possible: >> >> - Comment >> - Question >> - Menu >> - Message >> - Dataset >> >> >>> - >>> I had a recent proposal for a new subtype of CreativeWork, using >>> similar justification, knocked back in the Schema.org Github in this >>> way: >>> >>> “ *No, we really can* >>> *’t make TouristTrip a subclass of CreativeWork … that * >>> *would be way way too much of a hack. * *Lets add more domain/ranges to >>> the relevant properties.”* >>> >>> >>> I am not saying we would get the same response but we need good >>> justification for such a proposal. >>> >>> >>> >>> ~Richard. >>> >>> Richard Wallis >>> Founder, Data Liberate >>> http://dataliberate.com >>> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis >>> Twitter: @rjw >>> >>> On 9 January 2018 at 10:15, Bob Dolan <bob@diverselearnersconsulting.com >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> Listing the requirements for each use case is very helpful. Using >>>> schema.org/CreativeWork makes sense to me. >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> *Bob Dolan, Ph.D. | Principal* >>>> bob@diverselearnersconsulting.com >>>> www.diverselearnersconsulting.com >>>> 413.367.6199 <(413)%20367-6199> >>>> >>>> [image: Diverse Learners Consulting logo] >>>> <http://www.diverselearnersconsulting.com/> >>>> >>>> On Jan 9, 2018, at 4:21 AM, Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks Ryan, yes hooking into an existing schema.org type can minimize >>>> the number of new properties that are required. Don't worry about Course >>>> having an educationalCredentialAwarded property being a distraction: I >>>> think that we will be connecting to that when we get further down the list >>>> of use cases. >>>> >>>> Phil >>>> >>>> On 08/01/18 20:50, Ryan Price wrote: >>>> >>>> I think this makes a lot of sense, to extend CreativeWork. >>>> >>>> For example, when CreativeWork is extended to Course, you only add 4 >>>> properties: >>>> https://schema.org/Course >>>> >>>> courseCode >>>> coursePrerequisites >>>> educationalCredentialAwarded (oops, maybe I picked a bad example, since >>>> this mentions Credential. Don’t get distracted by this property!) >>>> hasCourseInstance >>>> >>>> ++ >>>> >>>> Ryan Price >>>> Senior Engineer >>>> >>>> Palantir.net <http://palantir.net/> >>>> (773) 645-4100 >>>> price@palantir.net >>>> >>>> Sign up for occasional emails: http://www.palantir.net/newsletter >>>> <http://www.palantir.net/newsletter> >>>> Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/palantir >>>> >>>> On Jan 8, 2018, at 6:34 AM, Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello all, >>>> >>>> Thank you for your input prioritising the use cases for Educational and >>>> Occupational Credentials. I have arranged to outline use cases >>>> <https://www.w3.org/community/eocred-schema/wiki/Use_Cases> to reflect >>>> these priorities. >>>> >>>> I have also indicated what I think is required in order to meet these >>>> use cases. Please take a look and let me know if I have missed anything. >>>> >>>> I propose we work through these requirements, trying to meet as many of >>>> them as possible with existing schema.org terms, and defining new >>>> terms where required. >>>> >>>> Picking two requirements from near the top of the list, we need to >>>> >>>> 1. be able to identify that an object is a educational / occupational >>>> credential >>>> >>>> 2. be able to identify name of an educational / occupational credential >>>> object >>>> >>>> I propose that we create a new schema.org class / type of thing, an >>>> EducationalOccupationalCredential >>>> >>>> definition: An educational or occupational credential. A diploma, >>>> academic degree, certification, qualification, badge, etc., that may be >>>> awarded to a person or other entity that meets the requirements defined by >>>> the credentialer. >>>> >>>> This will inherit the URL and name properties from schema.org/Thing >>>> thus meeting the requirements above. >>>> >>>> Furthermore, I think that it is logical and will allow reuse of several >>>> properties if we consider the EducationalOccupationalCredential to be >>>> a subtype of schema.org/CreativeWork. I think properties like >>>> educationalAlignment, audience, offers, provider, hasPart, datePublished, >>>> dateModified, expires, creator (and possibly others) will be useful in >>>> describing EducationalOccupationalCredentials. >>>> >>>> Any comments? >>>> >>>> Phil. >>>> >>>> >>>> [outline use cases] https://www.w3.org/community/e >>>> ocred-schema/wiki/Use_Cases >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Phil Barker <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>. http://people.pjjk.net/phil >>>> PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk/>: technology to enhance >>>> learning; information systems for education. >>>> CETIS LLP: a cooperative consultancy for innovation in education >>>> technology. >>>> >>>> PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private limited company, >>>> number SC569282. >>>> CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, registered in >>>> England number OC399090 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Phil Barker <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>. http://people.pjjk.net/phil >>>> PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk/>: technology to enhance >>>> learning; information systems for education. >>>> CETIS LLP: a cooperative consultancy for innovation in education >>>> technology. >>>> >>>> PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private limited company, >>>> number SC569282. >>>> CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, registered in >>>> England number OC399090 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Stuart A. Sutton, Metadata Consultant >> Associate Professor Emeritus, University of Washington >> Information School >> Email: stuartasutton@gmail.com >> Skype: sasutton >> >> >> > >
Received on Wednesday, 10 January 2018 17:41:13 UTC