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Re: [minutes] 2012-11-26

From: Phil Archer <phila@w3.org>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 09:34:34 +0000
Message-ID: <50B4892A.70708@w3.org>
To: Serafín Olcoz <olcoz@ej-gv.es>
CC: public-egov-ig@w3.org
Hi Serafín,

Apologies for my errors. I have copied and pasted your corrections into 
the minutes as you can now see at 
http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-egov-minutes.html

Hope this all OK now.

Cheers

Phil.

On 26/11/2012 13:55, Serafín Olcoz wrote:
> Hi Phil,
>
> I do not know how it works, but I would like to ask for some relevant
> changes added in line (the red ones) to the minutes (if possible, of course)
>
> Best regards,
>
> Serafin Olcoz
>
>
> El 26/11/12 11:38, "Phil Archer" <phila@w3.org> escribió:
>
>> The minutes of today's meeting featuring presentations from Rufus
>> Pollock and Serafin Olcoz are at
>> http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-egov-minutes.html and repeated below as text.
>>
>>
>>                      W3C eGov 26 November 2012 meeting
>>
>>      [2]Agenda
>>
>>         [2]
>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-egov-ig/2012Nov/0053.html
>>
>>      See also: [3]IRC log
>>
>>         [3] http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-egov-irc
>>
>> Attendees
>>
>>      Present
>>             agipap, PhilA2, [IPcaller], +8532871aaaa, Serafin,
>>             martinAlvarez, Tomasz, +8532871aabb, +8532871aacc,
>>             +44.786.783.aadd, Elsa, Rufus
>>
>>      Chair
>>             Tomasz Janowski
>>
>>      Scribe
>>             Florian Henning, PhilA
>>
>> Contents
>>
>>        * [4]Topics
>>            1. [5]Open data kickoff
>>            2. [6]presentation by open knowledge foundation (rufus
>>               pollock)
>>            3. [7]Serafin Olcoz on Openness and Reuse of Public
>>               Sector Information using Open Data Publishing, Decree
>>        * [8]Summary of Action Items
>>        __________________________________________________________
>>
>>      <scribe> Scribe: Florian Henning
>>
>>      <scribe> ScribeNick: fhenning
>>
>>      <PhilA2> Meeting:eGov Interest Group
>>
>>      <PhilA2> agenda:
>>      [9]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-egov-ig/2012Nov/0
>>      053.html
>>
>>         [9]
>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-egov-ig/2012Nov/0053.html
>>
>>      <PhilA2> chair: Tomasz
>>
>>      <DeirdreLee> I'm one of P5, P6 or P7..
>>
>>      <rgrp> hi there
>>
>>      <rgrp> this is rufus pollock ...
>>
>>      <rgrp> i am also on the phone
>>
>> Open data kickoff
>>
>>      Tomasz: welcomes participants and ask for round of
>>      introductions
>>
>>      <Olcoz> Hi Martin
>>
>>      [audio problems from Tomasz line. reconnecting]
>>
>>      [audio problems resolved]
>>
>>      yes i'm scribing
>>
>>      <PhilA2> scribe: fhenning
>>
>>      <PhilA2> scribeNick: fhenning
>>
>>      DeirdreLee: from from ireland
>>
>>      from unu-iist/merit
>>
>>      Gwyn_Sutherlin: phd candidate in peace studies
>>
>>      mariateresa: from england
>>
>>      martinAlvarez: from spain
>>
>>      <PhilA2> agipap: is Agis Panatoniou from NTUA Greece
>>
>>      Agis: from greece
>>
>>      <PhilA2> rgrp: Is Rufus Pollock
>>
>>      elsa: from unu-iist, macau
>>
>>      <billroberts> Hi All - from UK, particular interest in Linked
>>      Data for public sector
>>
>>      Tomasz: few words about open data topic
>>
>>      <Gwyn_Sutherlin> I joined the call as IP caller, not sure how
>>      to add
>>
>>      Tomasz: OD = data that is free to use/reuse by anyone
>>      ... OD has not yet beenproperly exploited, but can have huge
>>      potential
>>      ... impossible to predict how it can produce value
>>
>>      <elsa> I am trying to connect on the phone and type 3468# and I
>>      get the message that the code is incorrect
>>
>>      Tomasz: according to April's OD workshop by IDRC/Berkman
>>      center, there is a range of potential benefis from OD
>>      ... but we don't understand many issues about OD
>>      ... same workshop also identified strateic tensions relating to
>>      adoption of OD
>>      ... eg. contextual differences between developed and developing
>>      countries
>>      ... also strat. tension concerning outcomes vs. impact
>>      ... another point is a strat. tnesion between qualitative and
>>      quanitative methods to explore impact of OD
>>      ... it will be dificult to quantify many impacts. this impacts
>>      how analysis is framed
>>      ... any questions at this point?
>>
>>      no questions
>>
>>      Tomasz: introduces speakers
>>      ... daniel bennet is not on the call. tomasz will fill in
>>
>>      <rgrp>
>>      [10]http://notebook.okfn.org/2012/11/26/open-data-protocols-pre
>>      sentation-to-w3c-egov-interest-group/
>>
>>        [10]
>> http://notebook.okfn.org/2012/11/26/open-data-protocols-presentation-to-w3c-eg
>> ov-interest-group/
>>
>> presentation by open knowledge foundation (rufus pollock)
>>
>>      <rgrp>
>>      [11]http://notebook.okfn.org/2012/11/26/open-data-protocols-pre
>>      sentation-to-w3c-egov-interest-group/
>>
>>        [11]
>> http://notebook.okfn.org/2012/11/26/open-data-protocols-presentation-to-w3c-eg
>> ov-interest-group/
>>
>>      <rgrp> [12]http://bit.ly/dataprotocols-egov-nov-2012
>>
>>        [12] http://bit.ly/dataprotocols-egov-nov-2012
>>
>>      <PhilA2> Slides are now linked from the wiki
>>
>>      <rgrp> the notebook post would probably be the optimum thing to
>>      link to
>>
>>      <rgrp> [13]http://ckan.org/
>>
>>        [13] http://ckan.org/
>>
>>      [audio line from rufus has suboptimal sound quality, scribing
>>      will not be complete, pls refer to slides on wiki for more
>>      complete notes]
>>
>>      <rgrp> [14]http://dataprocotols.org/
>>
>>        [14] http://dataprocotols.org/
>>
>>      phil could you aid with scribing for this presentation if you
>>      receive better audio?
>>
>>      thanks
>>
>>      <DeirdreLee> [15]http://www.dataprotocols.org/
>>
>>        [15] http://www.dataprotocols.org/
>>
>>      <PhilA2> Slide 3 - we want a rich data ecosystm. Easy to share
>>      data, easy to use
>>
>>      <PhilA2> scribe: PhilA2
>>
>>      <rgrp>
>>      [16]http://blog.okfn.org/2011/03/31/building-the-open-data-ecos
>>      ystem/
>>
>>        [16] http://blog.okfn.org/2011/03/31/building-the-open-data-ecosystem/
>>
>>      rgrp: We're missing quite a lot of this middle piece. We have
>>      the top anad bottom but not the intermediatary group
>>      ... so data tends to be quite low quality
>>      ... To give you an example. If you;re trying to build something
>>      on a hack day, you spend half your data cleaning up data
>>      ... assuming you can find it, it's not in the right form, got
>>      messy terms etc.
>>      ... You need country codes that work in a mashup and so on.
>>      ... people spend time over and over again cleaning up the same
>>      daya
>>      ... Rufus shows his age and starts talking about punch cards
>>      ... A classic thing you might want to do is garb data and put
>>      in into postgre
>>      ... this is not a one liner. There's a lot to do. What we want
>>      is a one line to get data from a catalogue and put it into a
>>      local tool
>>
>>      <rgrp> [17]http://blog.okfn.org/2010/02/23/introducing-datapkg/
>>
>>        [17] http://blog.okfn.org/2010/02/23/introducing-datapkg/
>>
>>      <Tomasz> q
>>
>>      <Tomasz> phil, how to check the question queue? sorry
>>
>>      rgrp: A lot of software integration doesn't happen
>>      automatically. A lot of it is based on APIs
>>
>>      <Tomasz> thank you
>>
>>      rgrp: We need to look at (digital) packaging
>>      ... We need that kind of software packaging ecosystem - how do
>>      we do that with data?
>>      ... WE want to be better at automating getting data on nad off
>>      our machines
>>      ... W3C does good work on schemas but it's not lightweight
>>      ... We've been doing a thing called dataprotocols.org where
>>      people can hangout and work on specs
>>      ... Slide 5
>>      ... is a screen grab of what's going on
>>      ... these are concrete services that we have built or want to
>>      build
>>      ... it's not a formal standardisation process
>>      ... but this is a space for more informal, RFC-style
>>      development
>>      ... more on slide 6
>>      ... Going on to talk about data packages
>>      ... been working on it for about 5 years
>>      ... orginally part of CKAN
>>      ... we have software packages, can we have data packages?
>>      ... Focus on tabular data. The catalogues I've seen, tabular +
>>      geo is almost all of what gets published
>>      ... In terms of original raw data, most of it is tabular
>>      ... It has a lot of attractive properties that I could go on
>>      about
>>      ... A lot of the data is file based, not API-based
>>      ... flat files like CSV are very attractive. It may not be
>>      pretty but it is effective - like a Kalashnikov rifle
>>      ... everything supports it
>>      ... it streams well, you can have massive files
>>      ... a simple schema for describing CSV would be useful
>>      ... we need version info for CSVs. Open is important, but if
>>      eberyone is collaborating, how to we do version management for
>>      CSV
>>      ... Git or Mercurial are potentially good ones for CSAV as they
>>      are line-orientated
>>      ... the actual spec is available
>>      ... what it boils down to is a bunch of data files, you have
>>      JSON and you can have other stuff
>>      ... there's a .json file that includes the metadata
>>      ... and then you have a filespec to list your files
>>      ... Slide 12 is an example
>>
>>      <rgrp>
>>      [18]https://github.com/datasets/cofog/blob/master/datapackage.j
>>      son
>>
>>        [18] https://github.com/datasets/cofog/blob/master/datapackage.json
>>
>>      rgrp: You can add more to this. But basically it's a table
>>      schema
>>
>>      <rgrp>
>>      [19]http://www.dataprotocols.org/en/latest/json-table-schema.ht
>>      ml
>>
>>        [19] http://www.dataprotocols.org/en/latest/json-table-schema.html
>>
>>      The whole thing follows...
>>
>>      {
>>
>>      "metadata": {
>>
>>      "name": "cofog",
>>
>>      "title": "Classification of the Functions of Government",
>>
>>      "homepage":
>>      "[20]http://unstats.un.org/unsd/class/family/family2.asp?Cl=4",
>>
>>        [20] http://unstats.un.org/unsd/class/family/family2.asp?Cl=4
>>
>>      "version": "1999",
>>
>>      "source": "United Nations",
>>
>>      "licenses": [
>>
>>      {
>>
>>      "id": "odc-pddl",
>>
>>      "name": "Open Data Commons Public Domain Dedication and Licence
>>      (PDDL)",
>>
>>      "url": "[21]http://opendatacommons.org/licenses/pddl/"
>>
>>        [21] http://opendatacommons.org/licenses/pddl/
>>
>>      }
>>
>>      ],
>>
>>      "description": "Classification of the Functions of Government
>>      (COFOG) is a classification defined by the United Nations
>>      Statistics Division. Its purpose is to \"classify the purpose
>>      of transactions such as outlays on final consumption
>>      expenditure, intermediate consumption, gross capital formation
>>      and capital and current transfers, by general government\"
>>      (from home page).",
>>
>>      "keywords": [
>>
>>      "Classification",
>>
>>      "COFOG",
>>
>>      "Finances",
>>
>>      "Government",
>>
>>      "United Nations"
>>
>>      ]
>>
>>      },
>>
>>      "files": [
>>
>>      {
>>
>>      "path": "data/cofog.csv",
>>
>>      "fields": [
>>
>>      {
>>
>>      "id": "Code",
>>
>>      "type": "string"
>>
>>      },
>>
>>      {
>>
>>      "id": "Description",
>>
>>      "type": "string"
>>
>>      },
>>
>>      {
>>
>>      "id": "ExplanatoryNote",
>>
>>      "type": "string"
>>
>>      },
>>
>>      {
>>
>>      "id": "Change_date",
>>
>>      "type": "date"
>>
>>      }
>>
>>      ]
>>
>>      }
>>
>>      ]
>>
>>      }
>>
>>      rgrp: Interested to hear from the LD community in things like
>>      JSON-LD
>>      ... Wrapping up... you could push this to a local Web site and
>>      you have a data package
>>      ... Not concerned whether we adopt this kind of package or
>>      something that does the same thing, but it's how to publish
>>      data packages without a data catalogue
>>      ... Using JSON as your base schema language
>>      ... got to make something that can be used really usually
>>      ... Some people have suggested we drop JSON nad just use
>>      another Excel worksheet to provide the data
>>      ... Every step to making it easy, brings more uses of the data
>>      ... We want to reduce the fritcion to getting, using and
>>      sharing data
>>
>>      Tomasz: Thanks Rufus
>>
>>      <rgrp> I have finished
>>
>>      <rgrp> Any questions :-) ?
>>
>>      <Gwyn_Sutherlin> question
>>
>>      <fhenning> PhilA2: w3c is aware of process for schemas. there's
>>      a workshop planned for next year on exactly the issues that
>>      rufus has been addressing.
>>
>>      <scribe> scribe: fhenning
>>
>>      <PhilA2> Gwyn_Sutherlin: Do you do work around unstructured
>>      data - text, audio, video etc?
>>
>>      <PhilA2> rgrp: Yes, we do, It's the Open Knowledge Foundation -
>>      we're format agnostic
>>
>>      <rgrp> open knowledge includes content, data etc
>>
>>      <PhilA2> Gwyn_Sutherlin: Our cases are usually around
>>      transparency and cirrpution
>>
>>      <PhilA2> s/cirruption/corruption
>>
>>      <rgrp> we do a lot around other topics including corruption :-)
>>      eg. [22]http://okfnlabs.org/events/hackdays/lobbying.html
>>
>>        [22] http://okfnlabs.org/events/hackdays/lobbying.html
>>
>>      [sorry, the audio problems seem to be at our device . its'not
>>      possible for me to do complete scribing at this point. could
>>      you take over phil?]
>>
>>      <PhilA2> DeirdreLee: Thanks Rufus for the presentation. Do you
>>      see things like DCAT as added overhead? What tools do you see
>>      for packahing data?
>>
>>      <PhilA2> rgrp: That's my point. The spec allows you to build
>>      the tool. We have a tool called DPM
>>
>>      <rgrp> [23]http://dpm.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
>>
>>        [23] http://dpm.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
>>
>>      <PhilA2> rgrp: DCAT is in some ways format agnostic but it's an
>>      LD format. For an Excel user, you can tell them in 30" how to
>>      export in CSV. There's no "export in .n3" option
>>
>>      <rgrp> metadata = ini file - xyz: abc
>>
>>      <PhilA2> rgrp: Maybe the metadata file should be a .ini file
>>      for a simple example
>>
>>      <PhilA2> rgrp: Most formats are very simple, with JSON as the
>>      most complex. Need things people can produce with the tools
>>      they have
>>
>>      <PhilA2> Tomasz: Thanks Rufus again
>>
>>      <rgrp> see python, ruby, debs, nodejs etc - all have super
>>      simple package formats ..
>>
>>      <rgrp> also you need a reason for people to package - you need
>>      something they can then do ... (e.g. get something into
>>      postgres in 30s)
>>
>> Serafin Olcoz on Openness and Reuse of Public Sector Information
>> using Open Data Publishing, Decree
>>
>>      yes phil
>>
>>      <PhilA2> I love this line - The public sector is an archipelago
>>      of competences and budgets
>>
>>      [no it drops in and out - better if you do it phil]
>>
>>      <PhilA2> scribe: PhilA2
>>
>>      Olcoz: We decided to share all our code
>>      ... Slides
>>      [24]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/49911950/W3c%20-%20Open%20Assets.pd
>>      f
>>      ... Slide 2 has the key policies
>>      ... Memorandum specifies the schema to use etc.
>>      ... makes publication of source code etc.
>>      ... If you want to develop software, you are obloged to see
>>      what's already available and build on that
>>      ... you need to write a report on various aspects. What you're
>>      using, what you're contributing back etc. (under EUPL licence)
>>      ... provide a functional description etc.
>>      ... Also state what dependencies there are etc.
>>      ... You are required to publish at least the dependencies as it
>>      affects everyone, not just you
>>      ... The aim is to have a global idea of what is being done
>>      using public money to develop software
>>      ... This is formalising the re-use process
>>
>>        [24] http://dl.dropbox.com/u/49911950/W3c%20-%20Open%20Assets.pdf
>>
>>      PhilA2: The obligation applies just to people being paid by the
>>      public sector and not to third party developers?
>>
>>      Olcoz: Yes
>>      ... Private sector can take OSS and develop new products and
>>      services based on the OSS directory
>>      ... They may then realise the advantage of this and can, if
>>      they want, open their own source code
>>      ... Which we hope will create a virtuous cycle
>>      ... We're offering a robust service 24/7/365
>>      ... slide 5
>>      ... We are actively encouraging development.
>>      ... Supporting local enterprise and investment without having
>>      to spend public sector money - an unimportant feature in the
>>      current climate
>>      ... We'd like others to share out approach of course and would
>>      welcome a European approach
>>      ... In order to allow people to use your OSS, you need to have
>>      a portal to make it available and to be able to access other
>>      repositories
>>      ... the repository itself is an asset that has value
>>      ... you can learn a lot about past and present components
>>      ... if somethinng is under development and you can wait for it
>>      to be ready before you use it, then you know to wait, If you
>>      can't wait, you know you need to go your own way.
>>      ... all the records are contained in an open data catalogue
>>      ... Slide 9
>>      ... We're agnostic about formats. It can be data, or text or
>>      code etc.
>>      ... We need to be able to federate our repositories
>>      ... We defined various vocabularies, including for the re-use
>>      process
>>      ... We have the support of CTIC and others
>>      ... also of ministry of Finance and Public Administration in Spain,
> evaluating for use
>>      across Spain
>>
>>      <Tomasz> we will reschedule Elsa's presentation for the next
>>      meeting
>>
>>      Olcoz: talks about the schemas in use. Refers to RADion
>>      ([25]http://www.w3.org/ns/radion) and the ISA Programme that
>>      created it
>>
>>        [25] http://www.w3.org/ns/radion)
>>
>>      <Tomasz> but i would still like some discussion about Serafin's
>>      talk
>>
>>      Olcoz: Model can be used to link different sources of data from
>>      the Web. Important to see repository itself as an asset -
>>      needed to extend RADion I did not say this, I said that RADion is too
> specific and we had to develop an Ontology Adion from which RADion is particular
> cas that includes a instance of our Repository Asset. Considering a Repositoy as
> an Asset it allows as to have semantic federation of a distributed hierarchy of
> Repositories that RADIon or DCAT do not provide and requiere external
> programming to have such a Federation due their models work on Silos. Adion
> approach has also advantages to consider data or information coming from
> Internet of things.
>
>>      ... We find problems with ADMS and DCAT. They don't cover
>>      everything we need I did not say this but DCAT and ADMS do not take care
> properly of IPR of documentation attached to Data or Assets, but due to our
> abstraction for Elemental Open Assests (Data, Apps, Reports, ando so on), these
> documents are also Assets so their Distribution is able to properly deal with
> IPR issues.
>
>>      ... Three new portals launching in a couple of weeks' time. All
>>      source code is open for re-use
>>
>>      Tomasz: Thanks very much Serafin - very interesting
>>
>>      Olcoz: If you need info about the decree - I've submitted links
>>      to English resources to the IG
>>
>>      Tomasz: Can you give us a sense of the size of the Basque
>>      government involvement?
>>
>>      Olcoz: We're still working on finishing the repositories so
>>      we'll have to wait a few months to be able to report on
>>      experience
>>
>>      Tomasz: Is design for re-use part of the requirement of the new
>>      software project?
>>
>>      Olcoz: Not yet. That's the plan for the future
>>      ... People often saw design as being very specific to a use. In
>>      the early 90s, people began to change that view. Now you see a
>>      lot of re-usable software components
>>      ... We need to work on the guidelines around this
> I also added that I will present by this Thursday this work to W3C SIG GLD
> and that I will submit through it the vocabulary of Open Assets based on
> Adion to W3C in order to be taken into account for future evolution of
> standards related to Open Data and Re-use of Public Sector Information
>
>
>>      Tomasz: Any more questions?
>>
>>      Olcoz: I'd like to say I'm making a presentation on this to the
>>      GLD WG this Thursday
>>      ... Wants to make a Member Submission
>>
>>      Tomasz: We're at the end of our time
>>      ... Apologies to Elsa for moving your presentation to our next
>>      meeting next month
>>      ... A reminder that we have an open call for assistance with
>>      developing the group's summary of the various presentations we
>>      have received concerning social media
>>      ... Next few meetings will be on open data - and so will
>>      welcome guests and ideas for speakers
>>
>>      <Gwyn_Sutherlin> thanks
>>
>>      Tomasz: Thanks to speakers and scribes
>>
>

-- 


Phil Archer
W3C eGovernment
http://www.w3.org/egov/

http://philarcher.org
+44 (0)7887 767755
@philarcher1
Received on Tuesday, 27 November 2012 09:35:01 GMT

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