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Re: Fwd: what do you mean, e-gov?

From: Aisenberg, Michael A. <maisenberg@mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 14:28:10 +0000
To: "'paoladimaio10@googlemail.com'" <paoladimaio10@googlemail.com>, "'olyerickson@gmail.com'" <olyerickson@gmail.com>
CC: "'public-egov-ig@w3.org'" <public-egov-ig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <31567E986892CE4CB48E725707EA268D0AEC4022@IMCMBX02.MITRE.ORG>
Among a diverse group of very smart people from around the world in my experience there is often a risk of not appreciating how a seemingly trivial, to a U.S. Person, may be an "innovation" whose introduction in a different culture  (say, India, or Morocco) is truly transformative, while to a Siberian, a piece of software being adopted by the IRS which has dramatic consequences for all U.S. taxpayers may be of NO consequnce...Many of us it appears aren't sufficiently sensitive to/don't "get" those differences....cultural/experiential...
M.A.A.  Sent from handheld

----- Original Message -----
From: Paola Di Maio [mailto:paola.dimaio@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 09:55 AM
To: John Erickson <olyerickson@gmail.com>
Cc: eGov IG (Public) <public-egov-ig@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Fwd: what do you mean, e-gov?

Thank you John
for challenging the challenge :-)

the  intended sense of the question was

 'how do we know if the existing definition is adequate'  - ie  what
verification/evalidation
mechanisms doe we have in place to evaluate
the quality and usefulness of the work of the IG

and

'how was the definition achieved? how do we ensure it embeds and
reflects the core values its community members uphold in matters of
e-government, such as democracy and human rights?

---------------------------------------------note---
No legal government can operate outside the principles of
 democracy  and human rights, and the mediation of web technologies is
designed to
ensure, document and track how the governments operate within their
legal/legitimate mandates

---------------------------------------------------------------
also

are the members consulted as to how useful/valid this definition is to them?

is there any evidence of any such consultation?

does the IG have a process to ensure
transparency/democracy/participation to the governance of the IG
itself,

is the IG transformative, in this sense?
(ie, operate to achieve change, by practicing what it preaches) if
not, should it be?



PDM






On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 2:31 PM, John Erickson <olyerickson@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is an amazingly rich and thoughtful discussion --- thanks!
>
> I would like to challenge the assertion that that W3C eGov definition
> <http://www.w3.org/egov/> is inadequate. Like all W3C *G's (including
> WG's and IG's) the W3C eGov IG includes as it's context "The World"
> (which includes many forms of government) and "The Web" (although the
> definition is broadened to include other modes of communication.
>
> As I understand it, the W3C eGov IG is about _doing government better
> by decreasing the friction of citizen-citizen, citizen-government, and
> government-government communications_. It is not a democracy advocacy
> group, a human rights advocacy group, or an advocacy group for
> particular manifestations of technologies and services. But since it
> *is* a W3C group, it is naturally be a projection of the core values
> of the W3C (in process as well as content) and inevitably this will
> ave a democratic tone...but this is not the core purpose.
>
> Most W3C group charters are a balance between constraint (in order to
> get work done) and extensibility (in order to be inclusive of new
> views and rapid changes in technology). I think that the current W3C
> eGov IG brief strikes this balance --- but am willing to be corrected
> ;)
>
> John
>
> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 6:55 AM, Mick Phythian <mick.phythian@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I think you've discovered the difficulties I had in finding a working
>> definition of e-gov - hence the one I chose!
>>
>> Along with a definition of e-gov you'll then need a definition of democracy.
>> Many of us are in representative democracies; what aspects of e-government
>> require/lead to is direct democracy - I labelled this one of the 'antinomies
>> of modern government'. True e-government and representative democracy aren't
>> compatible...
>>
>> Mick http://greatemancipator.com

>>
>> On 27 April 2012 11:47, Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you Tomasz
>>>
>>>
>>> > The W3C definition of EGOV is at the top of http://www.w3.org/egov/:

>>> > "eGovernment is the use of the Web and other information technologies
>>> > by governments to interact with the citizenry, between departments and
>>> > divisions, and with other governments".
>>>
>>> Who wrote this definition? (should the provenance of the working
>>> definition be stated?)
>>>
>>> How do we know that this definition is adequate for our purpose, and
>>> represents the view of the list members?
>>> (certainly it does not represent my view of e-Gov, and others
>>> we have heard so far) :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It seems to me that such a definition reinforces the structural gap
>>> between
>>> 'governement' and 'citizenry', rather than diminishing it.
>>>
>>> Many of us like to think,for example, that citizens *are* the
>>> government, before they given a blue collar and transformed into fuel
>>> for the bureaucratic, dysfunctional political machinery
>>>
>>> Given appropriate democratic practices and adoption of technologies
>>> that support their participation, there should be no us and them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > This process could perhaps lead to the revision of the W3C definition.
>>>
>>>
>>> oh yes, please :-)
>>> Thank you
>>>
>>>
>>> PDM
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> >
>>> > Tomasz
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> In the definition below, I am particularly interested in the word
>>> >> *transformation.  *
>>> >> *
>>> >> *
>>> >> The question could be formulated as:
>>> >> how do bring transformation of traditional governance (from closed,
>>> >> secretive, self serving, corruption prone self established elites) to
>>> >>  e-governance (assuming we establish among the principles of self
>>> >> governance: opennes, transparency, serving the common good, accountable
>>> >> and
>>> >> participative)
>>> >
>>> >> Since you have a Phd on the subject, could it be a good idea if you
>>> >> started
>>> >> an essay on the topic, and get others to chip in?
>>> >> *
>>> >> *
>>> >> *Cheers*
>>> >> *
>>> >> *
>>> >> *PDM
>>> >> *
>>> >
>>> >> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 11:53 PM, Mick Phythian
>>> >> <mick.phythian@gmail.com>wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>> Having done a PhD on the area, the one I settled on was in a Canadian
>>> >>> report by Roy (2006, p.x), he further refines ‘e-government’ as “The
>>> >>> continuous innovation in the delivery of services, citizen
>>> >>> participation,
>>> >>> and governance through the transformation of external and internal
>>> >>> relationships by the use of information  technology, especially the
>>> >>> Internet”.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Roy, J. (2006). *E-Government in Canada* (Reprinted 2008 ed.). Ottawa,
>>> >>> Canada: University of Ottawa.com
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Best of a bad bunch!
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Mick http://greatemancipator.com - still lurking
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On 24 April 2012 20:09, Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> For those who have been around the last twenty years or any
>>> >>>> subset thereof, the question is not new. We each seem to
>>> >>>> use the same word with different meanings (anyone else laughing
>>> >>>> hysterically at this point?)
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I was recently giving a talk and providing my own definition(s), and
>>> >>>> would have liked
>>> >>>> to point to the W3C definition of egov. But I could not remember
>>> >>>> whether
>>> >>>> we agreed on one, and where it can be accessed.  Admittedly I have
>>> >>>> been
>>> >>>> away a lot lately.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> For example,  for me egovernance applies to both
>>> >>>> the governance of civil society institutions (presumably the
>>> >>>> governance
>>> >>>> democratic institutions that are ruled by first principles, and the
>>> >>>> universal declaration of human rights, although in reality there may
>>> >>>> not be
>>> >>>> many governments that do so), as well as the governance of online
>>> >>>> communities, whereby the information and decisions are mediated by
>>> >>>> online
>>> >>>> technologies, or something like that. But not sure if this has been
>>> >>>> discussed
>>> >>>> I do not remember any such discussions on list. Is it my memory
>>> >>>> failing
>>> >>>> me again?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Any threads/uri's someone could kindly repost if these questions have
>>> >>>> already been asked?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>  if not, i would invite the IG Chairs to start off with some proposed
>>> >>>> definitions, either on list or on wiki page possibly one for each
>>> >>>> term in
>>> >>>> our shared vocabulary, (wiki? url......), then  members (other than
>>> >>>> pure
>>> >>>> lurkers) could introduce themseles and get their active participation
>>> >>>> in the
>>> >>>> group going by entering their own definitions/variations, with
>>> >>>> possibly a
>>> >>>> link to their profile
>>> >>>> so that we can start getting to know each other meaningfully?:-)
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> sincerely
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> PDM
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> Mick Phythian PhD
>>> >>>
>>> >>> http://greatemancipator.com

>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mick Phythian PhD
>>
>> http://greatemancipator.com

>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> John S. Erickson, Ph.D.
> Director, Web Science Operations
> Tetherless World Constellation (RPI)
> <http://tw.rpi.edu> <olyerickson@gmail.com>
> Twitter & Skype: olyerickson
>

Received on Friday, 27 April 2012 14:28:42 GMT

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