W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-digipub-ig@w3.org > October 2016

Re: The MQ (or not) issue; what we are seeking

From: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 16:49:05 +0000
To: Peter Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>, Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>
CC: Alan Stearns <stearns@adobe.com>, "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com>, "public-digipub-ig@w3.org" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <56651D41-40E5-4354-82AB-C73542DCD0C3@adobe.com>
I have a completely different reason for wanting MathML as part of PWP – alignment with the Open Data movement.

Open Data is not just about raw numbers – it’s about exposing rich semantic information that can be consumed by both humans and machines (with the emphasis on the latter).  To me, MathML represents the current standard for semantic math (yes, I know that the MathML used today is more presentational than content, but let’s ignore that for now).  I want a way to be able to capture those rich mathematical semantics into a PWP that can be linked to/from other places.

But if you have another (existing) standard that could be used here – instead of MathML – I’m fine with that…

Leonard

From: Peter Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>
Date: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 at 12:06 PM
To: Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>
Cc: Alan Stearns <stearns@adobe.com>, "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com>, "public-digipub-ig@w3.org" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Subject: RE: The MQ (or not) issue; what we are seeking
Resent-From: <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Resent-Date: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 at 12:06 PM

Moving to the other thread you opened.

> It is in STM workflows that the value of MathML is unquestionable.

In my experience, that value comes primarily out of its use in XML-to-print workflows.

> Which is why publishers _already have it_.

I don't see how this is relevant. Publishers have lots of formats that would be bad for the web.

> And I cannot tell you how many meetings and conversations I have had with people from the accessibility community who are _pleading_ for that MathML.

As I wrote, "greatly exaggerated". I've had many similar discussions and it usually turns out that even accessibility experts are mostly misinformed as to in how far MathML really helps with accessibility. In particular, they are not aware how MathML accessibility solutions work (i.e., decidedly *not* using MathML) and they are also usually unaware of the state of MathML accessibility software "market".

> We are not talking about rendering the MathML on the Web. We are talking about making it safe for publishers to put it in their EPUBs.

Fair enough.
Peter.



On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 5:27 PM, Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com<mailto:bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>> wrote:
I did not say the value of MathML _for the Web_ was unquestionable. In fact its _insufficiency_ for that purpose is unquestionable. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.

It is in STM workflows that the value of MathML is unquestionable. Which is why publishers _already have it_.

And I cannot tell you how many meetings and conversations I have had with people from the accessibility community who are _pleading_ for that MathML. Right now. Remember (if you saw it) my mention of the student needing a physics textbook to be accessible, for which having the MathML makes a $50,000 and six-month difference in making that textbook available to her.

Also remember that this request _comes from the EPUB WG_. EPUB 3 is the standard interchange format for accessible content. We are committed to aligning as well as possible with Open Web standards in EPUB. Which is why we approached the CSS WG when Daniel suggested this MQ solution. We are not talking about rendering the MathML on the Web. We are talking about making it safe for publishers to put it in their EPUBs.

If MQ can't be used for this, then we have to find another way that works. Period. Soon.

Bill Kasdorf

VP and Principal Consultant | Apex CoVantage

p:

734-904-6252<tel:734-904-6252>  m:   734-904-6252<tel:734-904-6252>

ISNI: http://isni.org/isni/0000000116490786

ORCiD: https://orcid.org/0000-0001-7002-4786<https://orcid.org/0000-0001-7002-4786?lang=en>


From: Peter Krautzberger [mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org<mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>]
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 11:18 AM
To: Bill Kasdorf
Cc: Alan Stearns; Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken; public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Subject: Re: [dpub] agenda 20161003

Ok, this might be viewed as a rant. But since I've been apparently too subtle about this in the past:

> we do that_ because the value of the MathML in the workflow is unquestionable

I think this is the key error in this argument. In my experience, the value of MathML for the web has been extremely exaggerated, in particular for visual but more importantly for other use cases, especially accessibility.

Personally, I think MathML is a fundamentally flawed standard when it comes to the web. It might be fine for xml document workflows but for the web it's ultimately a bad technology from a lost age called the 90s.

It need not be used and should not be used today.

Regards,
Peter.

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:59 PM, Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com<mailto:bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>> wrote:
I still think we're missing the point of the initial request. And maybe the ensuing discussion reveals that MQ (despite its apparent appealing simplicity as the _interim_ solution we are looking for) is not going to work and we need to come up with another tack that _will work right now_, not a year or two years or a decade from now.

Here's what we need.

--Publisher has MathML.
To recap what I've said a gazillion times, STM publishers generate literally millions of equations as MathML. I wouldn't be surprised if the organization I work for _itself_ produces millions of equations as MathML _every year_. Yes, we have to do some tweaks sometimes to work around things that go wrong, but _we do that_ because the value of the MathML in the workflow is unquestionable. We could not do what we do without it.

--Publisher creates image of equation from MathML.
I am a huge fan of MathJax, and I am thrilled at the developments over the past year, wrt both server-side functionality and accessibility enhancement. Kudos to Peter and co. SVG or HTML+CSS or .jpg, the publisher has controlled "this is what the equation must look like." Visually.

--Publisher puts BOTH the MathML and the image in an EPUB.
Publishers are NOT doing this now because they can't trust that the image will be used when the MathML support is insufficient; they just want to provide the image to be safe. They don't put the MathML in the EPUB because then some reading systems try to use it and mess it up or don't even realize they should use the image.

--Publisher has a way to say "use the image for visual rendering and make the MathML available to AT."
This is what we need RIGHT NOW while the industry struggles to come up with a real solution, which may or may not ultimately involve rendering MathML reliably (though of course remember those millions of equations rendered from MathML that STM publishers find quite acceptable).

--Reading systems actually do that.

We are not looking for an assertion that a reading system will render the MathML perfectly. That may be the reason the appealing MQ assertion won't fly.

What we need is an interim solution that will make it safe for publishers to deliver the MathML along with the image that they want displayed visually. For now.

Bill Kasdorf

VP and Principal Consultant | Apex CoVantage

p:

734-904-6252<tel:734-904-6252>  m:   734-904-6252<tel:734-904-6252>

ISNI: http://isni.org/isni/0000000116490786

ORCiD: https://orcid.org/0000-0001-7002-4786<https://orcid.org/0000-0001-7002-4786?lang=en>


From: Alan Stearns [mailto:stearns@adobe.com<mailto:stearns@adobe.com>]
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 10:25 AM
To: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken; Peter Krautzberger; public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>

Subject: Re: [dpub] agenda 20161003

Tzviya,

I thought exactly the same thing when I read it, but Peter had beat me to it. There’s already a long thread discussing this on www-style.

Thanks,

Alan

From: "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>
Date: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 at 5:24 AM
To: Peter Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org<mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>>, "public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>>
Cc: W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: [dpub] agenda 20161003
Resent-From: <public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 at 5:25 AM

Thanks, Peter. I think it would be helpful to pass this on to the CSS WG.

Tzviya Siegman
Information Standards Lead
Wiley
201-748-6884<tel:201-748-6884>
tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: Peter Krautzberger [mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org]
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2016 10:37 AM
To: public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Cc: W3C Digital Publishing IG
Subject: Re: [dpub] agenda 20161003


Regrets from me. It's a public holiday where I live.

But I wrote up my thoughts on the media query at https://www.peterkrautzberger.org/0190/


As I said in the breakout meeting, this is my personal opinion and what I would tell my clients.

Best,
Peter.

On Sep 30, 2016 3:50 PM, "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>> wrote:

Hi DPUB,



Below is the draft agenda for next week's IG concall, to be held at the usual time and day [0].



Please let us know if you are able to scribe. Please join the call via WebEx [1] and join IRC [13] for live chat & minutes (IRC channel #dpub).



Webex: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/WebEx<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_dpub_IG_wiki_WebEx&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=HDWX517A02R9inge-INWWnkv3kZpEQ_xnLCWv-ZBkN8&e=> (note: you will need a password. Refer to earlier message for pwd or log in to IRC to obtain)





Agenda:

* Approve minutes [2] [3] [4]

* New Meeting time: beginning next week,  10 Oct, Monday. 16:00 UTC/12:00 EDT/18:00 CET

* Post-TPAC Action items: See list below

* Remember to fill out post-TPAC Survey [5]





Post TPAC Action items:

•          WCAG: (@Avneesh/Charles)

o   provide techniques etc from EPUB to AWK and JO by Dec,

o   see https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/ (already reviewed).

o   schedule joint call (chairs can coordinate scheduling)

o   See https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Success_Criteria for info about writing new success criteria and https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/1 for SC template.

•         CSS

o   Provide Dean Jackson with information about why publishers need tables

o   Clarify with Peter K what status of Math MQ is and next steps

o   @dave – look into InDesign hanging punctuation

o   @david_wood: table samples to Dean Jackson

o   @liam – XSL-FO => CSS-FO

•         (P)WP:

o   https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/64 @Tzviya assign Heather’s issues to individuals

o   @Leonard dedupe PWP-UCR

o   @Heather reorg PWP-UCR

o   @brady action 65: split PWP into review chunks

o   Many have been assigned github issues. Please check to see if you’ve been assigned an issue. Pay attention to the issues.

o   Future: look into Object Model for WP

•         POE:

o   Tzviya/BillK to reach out to Journals Publishers re: POE, ODRL mapping





[0] http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=DPUB+IG+Meeting&iso=20161003T11&p1=43




[1] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/WebEx<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_dpub_IG_wiki_WebEx&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=AWVyHkab-8YSKIFvg5cX199RKBKASxchJoT8vOl6Eds&e=>



[2] https://www.w3.org/2016/09/12-dpub-minutes.html




[3] https://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-dpub-minutes.html




[4] https://www.w3.org/2016/09/20-dpub-minutes.html




[5] https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/tpac2016-feedback/




-------------------------------------------------

To join this telecon, use the following logistics:



Webex [10]



Join chat and minutes on Zakim



We will also use an IRC channel to minute the discussions:

Address:  irc.w3.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__irc.w3.org&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=h-5bD2a_nAKp3H7yBTuZon_BjouN6r1WvAuXcVc2hd4&e=>

Available ports (choose one): 6667, 6665, 21 IRC channel: #dpub See how to connect [11] using an IRC client [12] or our web interface [13] User Instructions for Zakim [14] To mute your line press 61#. Unmute is 60#.



To place yourself on the speaker queue ('q+' in irc) press 41# (Handup).



Unqueue ('q-' in irc) is 40#.



-------------------------------------------------

Digital Publishing Interest Group home page http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_dpub_IG_&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=qizMA2uF3w05lFnio42yhvYTbP3KdqfhoGKdarm9vp8&e=> Digital Publishing Interest Group Wiki



http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Main_Page<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_dpub_IG_wiki_Main-5FPage&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=YIM72-SWeepRM7ccMwTLXXb_ommtJZ_7dywgTAhwh2w&e=>



* Digital Publishing Interest Group Charter http://www.w3.org/2013/02/digpubig.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_2013_02_digpubig.html&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=MspFOYljKyd3OvLK4HQ0tSDoyy7deeDPXBsY2eTZ4Bg&e=>

* IG Task forces http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_dpub_IG_wiki_Task-5FForces&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=2hMdfz9wvT2yt-LRpjGD2JOlLRGRsrbz94MEIcJDAiE&e=>



[10] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/WebEx<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_dpub_IG_wiki_WebEx&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=AWVyHkab-8YSKIFvg5cX199RKBKASxchJoT8vOl6Eds&e=>



[11] http://www.w3.org/Project/IRC/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_Project_IRC_&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=nSqDkNODuFfTEvgyvxepXvGUWc5gfHHusclLX-pifqw&e=>



[13] http://www.w3.org/Project/IRC/#Client<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_Project_IRC_-23Client&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=dMrCmw2z6nfp4OehFQaPzST9jcnnQr0vCJKszDMz3yk&e=>



[13] http://irc.w3.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__irc.w3.org_&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=TZckj2m7jaTSnt-0_YfNwbvT9Wr_8945IKVYL7vyACo&e=>



[14] http://www.w3.org/2002/01/UsingZakim<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_2002_01_UsingZakim&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=evvsspcHumsRw4CWlOs5pGNisePyMksCrMEmpBaJ0ag&e=>



Tzviya Siegman
Information Standards Lead
Wiley
201-748-6884<tel:201-748-6884>
tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>



Received on Wednesday, 5 October 2016 16:49:42 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Tuesday, 25 April 2017 10:44:46 UTC