# RE: The MQ (or not) issue; what we are seeking

From: Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 17:04:57 +0000
To: Peter Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>
CC: Alan Stearns <stearns@adobe.com>, "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com>, "public-digipub-ig@w3.org" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Responses inline.

Bill Kasdorf

VP and Principal Consultant | Apex CoVantage

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From: Peter Krautzberger [mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 12:06 PM
To: Bill Kasdorf
Cc: Alan Stearns; Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken; public-digipub-ig@w3.org
Subject: RE: The MQ (or not) issue; what we are seeking

Moving to the other thread you opened.

> It is in STM workflows that the value of MathML is unquestionable.

In my experience, that value comes primarily out of its use in XML-to-print workflows.
<BK>Not any more. Most workflows generate print and online files, and the MathML is an integral part of how the images of the math are generated. The MathML is no longer created as an afterthought, it is created as the master file from which the images (in print or online) are created.</BK>

> Which is why publishers _already have it_.

I don't see how this is relevant. Publishers have lots of formats that would be bad for the web.
<BK>The discussion originated and apparently needs to move back to EPUB. We are trying to conform to Web standards wherever possible in EPUB. But we need a solution that enables publishers to safely incorporate the MathML _that they already have_ into EPUBs so it is available for AT.</BK>

> And I cannot tell you how many meetings and conversations I have had with people from the accessibility community who are _pleading_ for that MathML.

As I wrote, "greatly exaggerated". I've had many similar discussions and it usually turns out that even accessibility experts are mostly misinformed as to in how far MathML really helps with accessibility. In particular, they are not aware how MathML accessibility solutions work (i.e., decidedly *not* using MathML) and they are also usually unaware of the state of MathML accessibility software "market".
<BK>I think the important distinction is that the lack of MathML at all is so problematic for the accessibility community that they need it now, for the admittedly imperfect AT solutions available now, rather than not having a solution at all.</BK>

> We are not talking about rendering the MathML on the Web. We are talking about making it safe for publishers to put it in their EPUBs.

Fair enough.
Peter.

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 5:27 PM, Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com<mailto:bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>> wrote:
I did not say the value of MathML _for the Web_ was unquestionable. In fact its _insufficiency_ for that purpose is unquestionable. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.

It is in STM workflows that the value of MathML is unquestionable. Which is why publishers _already have it_.

And I cannot tell you how many meetings and conversations I have had with people from the accessibility community who are _pleading_ for that MathML. Right now. Remember (if you saw it) my mention of the student needing a physics textbook to be accessible, for which having the MathML makes a \$50,000 and six-month difference in making that textbook available to her.

Also remember that this request _comes from the EPUB WG_. EPUB 3 is the standard interchange format for accessible content. We are committed to aligning as well as possible with Open Web standards in EPUB. Which is why we approached the CSS WG when Daniel suggested this MQ solution. We are not talking about rendering the MathML on the Web. We are talking about making it safe for publishers to put it in their EPUBs.

If MQ can't be used for this, then we have to find another way that works. Period. Soon.

Bill Kasdorf

VP and Principal Consultant | Apex CoVantage

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From: Peter Krautzberger [mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org<mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>]
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 11:18 AM
To: Bill Kasdorf
Cc: Alan Stearns; Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken; public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Subject: Re: [dpub] agenda 20161003

Ok, this might be viewed as a rant. But since I've been apparently too subtle about this in the past:

> we do that_ because the value of the MathML in the workflow is unquestionable

I think this is the key error in this argument. In my experience, the value of MathML for the web has been extremely exaggerated, in particular for visual but more importantly for other use cases, especially accessibility.

Personally, I think MathML is a fundamentally flawed standard when it comes to the web. It might be fine for xml document workflows but for the web it's ultimately a bad technology from a lost age called the 90s.

It need not be used and should not be used today.

Regards,
Peter.

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:59 PM, Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com<mailto:bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>> wrote:
I still think we're missing the point of the initial request. And maybe the ensuing discussion reveals that MQ (despite its apparent appealing simplicity as the _interim_ solution we are looking for) is not going to work and we need to come up with another tack that _will work right now_, not a year or two years or a decade from now.

Here's what we need.

--Publisher has MathML.
To recap what I've said a gazillion times, STM publishers generate literally millions of equations as MathML. I wouldn't be surprised if the organization I work for _itself_ produces millions of equations as MathML _every year_. Yes, we have to do some tweaks sometimes to work around things that go wrong, but _we do that_ because the value of the MathML in the workflow is unquestionable. We could not do what we do without it.

--Publisher creates image of equation from MathML.
I am a huge fan of MathJax, and I am thrilled at the developments over the past year, wrt both server-side functionality and accessibility enhancement. Kudos to Peter and co. SVG or HTML+CSS or .jpg, the publisher has controlled "this is what the equation must look like." Visually.

--Publisher puts BOTH the MathML and the image in an EPUB.
Publishers are NOT doing this now because they can't trust that the image will be used when the MathML support is insufficient; they just want to provide the image to be safe. They don't put the MathML in the EPUB because then some reading systems try to use it and mess it up or don't even realize they should use the image.

--Publisher has a way to say "use the image for visual rendering and make the MathML available to AT."
This is what we need RIGHT NOW while the industry struggles to come up with a real solution, which may or may not ultimately involve rendering MathML reliably (though of course remember those millions of equations rendered from MathML that STM publishers find quite acceptable).

--Reading systems actually do that.

We are not looking for an assertion that a reading system will render the MathML perfectly. That may be the reason the appealing MQ assertion won't fly.

What we need is an interim solution that will make it safe for publishers to deliver the MathML along with the image that they want displayed visually. For now.

Bill Kasdorf

VP and Principal Consultant | Apex CoVantage

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734-904-6252<tel:734-904-6252>  m:   734-904-6252<tel:734-904-6252>

ISNI: http://isni.org/isni/0000000116490786

ORCiD: https://orcid.org/0000-0001-7002-4786<https://orcid.org/0000-0001-7002-4786?lang=en>

Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 10:25 AM
To: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken; Peter Krautzberger; public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>

Subject: Re: [dpub] agenda 20161003

Tzviya,

I thought exactly the same thing when I read it, but Peter had beat me to it. There’s already a long thread discussing this on www-style.

Thanks,

Alan

From: "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>
Date: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 at 5:24 AM
To: Peter Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org<mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>>, "public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>>
Cc: W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: [dpub] agenda 20161003
Resent-From: <public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 at 5:25 AM

Thanks, Peter. I think it would be helpful to pass this on to the CSS WG.

Tzviya Siegman
Wiley
201-748-6884<tel:201-748-6884>
tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: Peter Krautzberger [mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org]
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2016 10:37 AM
To: public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Cc: W3C Digital Publishing IG
Subject: Re: [dpub] agenda 20161003

Regrets from me. It's a public holiday where I live.

But I wrote up my thoughts on the media query at https://www.peterkrautzberger.org/0190/

As I said in the breakout meeting, this is my personal opinion and what I would tell my clients.

Best,
Peter.

On Sep 30, 2016 3:50 PM, "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>> wrote:

Hi DPUB,

Below is the draft agenda for next week's IG concall, to be held at the usual time and day [0].

Please let us know if you are able to scribe. Please join the call via WebEx [1] and join IRC [13] for live chat & minutes (IRC channel #dpub).

Webex: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/WebEx<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_dpub_IG_wiki_WebEx&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=HDWX517A02R9inge-INWWnkv3kZpEQ_xnLCWv-ZBkN8&e=> (note: you will need a password. Refer to earlier message for pwd or log in to IRC to obtain)

Agenda:

* Approve minutes [2] [3] [4]

* New Meeting time: beginning next week,  10 Oct, Monday. 16:00 UTC/12:00 EDT/18:00 CET

* Post-TPAC Action items: See list below

* Remember to fill out post-TPAC Survey [5]

Post TPAC Action items:

•          WCAG: (@Avneesh/Charles)

o   provide techniques etc from EPUB to AWK and JO by Dec,

o   see https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/ (already reviewed).

o   schedule joint call (chairs can coordinate scheduling)

o   See https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Success_Criteria for info about writing new success criteria and https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/1 for SC template.

•         CSS

o   Provide Dean Jackson with information about why publishers need tables

o   Clarify with Peter K what status of Math MQ is and next steps

o   @dave – look into InDesign hanging punctuation

o   @david_wood: table samples to Dean Jackson

o   @liam – XSL-FO => CSS-FO

•         (P)WP:

o   https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/64 @Tzviya assign Heather’s issues to individuals

o   @Leonard dedupe PWP-UCR

o   @Heather reorg PWP-UCR

o   @brady action 65: split PWP into review chunks

o   Many have been assigned github issues. Please check to see if you’ve been assigned an issue. Pay attention to the issues.

o   Future: look into Object Model for WP

•         POE:

o   Tzviya/BillK to reach out to Journals Publishers re: POE, ODRL mapping

[0] http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=DPUB+IG+Meeting&iso=20161003T11&p1=43

[1] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/WebEx<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_dpub_IG_wiki_WebEx&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=AWVyHkab-8YSKIFvg5cX199RKBKASxchJoT8vOl6Eds&e=>

[2] https://www.w3.org/2016/09/12-dpub-minutes.html

[3] https://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-dpub-minutes.html

[4] https://www.w3.org/2016/09/20-dpub-minutes.html

[5] https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/tpac2016-feedback/

-------------------------------------------------

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Join chat and minutes on Zakim

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Unqueue ('q-' in irc) is 40#.

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Tzviya Siegman