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Re: [Minutes] 2014-04-09 (NB No meeting next week 16th)

From: Yakov Shafranovich <yakov-ietf@shaftek.org>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 09:33:19 -0400
Message-ID: <CAPQd5oQA8kDHnPw5YhsQUnJLXgiVD4tU3F-YRVYJ8Y-3zOJkqg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Phil Archer <phila@w3.org>
Cc: Public CSVW WG <public-csv-wg@w3.org>
Thank you!

On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Phil Archer <phila@w3.org> wrote:
> Ah, I think you may have been caught by the change to summer time in Europe.
>
> Times for this WG are fixed at 13:00 London time, i.e. the next meeting is
> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CSVW+WG&iso=20140423T13&p1=136
>
> Phil.
>
>
> On 09/04/2014 14:09, Yakov Shafranovich wrote:
>>
>> I think I am confused about the times. What time of the date are phone
>> conferences scheduled for?
>>
>> Yakov
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 9:03 AM, Phil Archer <phila@w3.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> The minutes of today's meeting are at
>>> http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-csvw-minutes.html.
>>>
>>> Note that the WG will skip next week's meeting so that the next one is on
>>> Wednesday 23rd April.
>>>
>>> A snapshot of today's minutes are below.
>>>
>>>
>>>                CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference
>>>
>>> 09 Apr 2014
>>>
>>>     See also: [2]IRC log
>>>
>>>        [2] http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-csvw-irc
>>>
>>> Attendees
>>>
>>>     Present
>>>            AndyS, fresco, +1.937.207.aaaa, phila, JeniT, MathewT,
>>>            DavideCeolin, danbri, +44.777.586.aabb, jtandy
>>>
>>>     Regrets
>>>            Axel, Stasinos, Alfonso
>>>
>>>     Chair
>>>            Jeni
>>>
>>>     Scribe
>>>            Andy Seaborne
>>>
>>> Contents
>>>
>>>       * [3]Topics
>>>           1. [4]UCR
>>>           2. [5]Conversion
>>>           3. [6]Model for tabular data
>>>       * [7]Summary of Action Items
>>>       __________________________________________________________
>>>
>>>     <trackbot> Date: 09 April 2014
>>>
>>>     <scribe> scribe: Andy Seaborne
>>>
>>>     <scribe> scribenick: AndyS
>>>
>>>     <danbri> thanks AndyS!
>>>
>>>     AndyS: Regrets for next week.
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> JeniT: Regrets for next week
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> [8]http://www.w3.org/2014/04/02-csvw-minutes.html
>>>
>>>        [8] http://www.w3.org/2014/04/02-csvw-minutes.html
>>>
>>>     <danbri> looks good
>>>
>>>     AndyS: Not all actions recorded in the tracker
>>>
>>>     <danbri> 3 of them are for me; i'll make todos directly.
>>>
>>>     APPROVED: Minutes
>>>     [9]http://www.w3.org/2014/04/02-csvw-minutes.html
>>>
>>>        [9] http://www.w3.org/2014/04/02-csvw-minutes.html
>>>
>>> UCR
>>>
>>>     Davide: will sync with jeremy
>>>
>>>     phila: making progress on my action for a UC
>>>
>>>     <phila> ACTION: phila to add use case linking from metadata to
>>>     the data [recorded in
>>>     [10]http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-csvw-minutes.html#action01]
>>>
>>>     <trackbot> Created ACTION-12 - to add use case linking from
>>>     metadata to the data [on Phil Archer - due 2014-04-16].
>>>
>>>     <danbri> (phil's action was on me last week as "chase phila for
>>>     his usecase in which a party provides metadata for another's
>>>     csv"; I declare my work done)
>>>
>>> Conversion
>>>
>>>     [11]http://w3c.github.io/csvw/csv2rdf/
>>>
>>>       [11] http://w3c.github.io/csvw/csv2rdf/
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> AndyS: we had a telcon yesterday
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... including jtandy, Gregg, Juan
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... we're looking at processing from CSV to CSV to
>>>     clean up the general data
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... eg fixing up new lines, delimiters, date formats
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... thought better to do that as rewriting CSV
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... then convert clean CSV to RDF/JSON/XML
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... R2RML is the nuclear option for complicated
>>>     transforms
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... we didn't push on the boundaries around that
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... similarly might want to do RDF-to-RDF or
>>>     JSON-to-JSON transforms after conversion
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... we don't want to repeat work done elsewhere, or add
>>>     more tools to end users' toolchain
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... we discussed on what's published
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... there's CSVs published as the outcome of a longer
>>>     process
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... shared schemas, shared transformations, custom
>>>     mappings
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... at scale & in volume; sharing parts of the files is
>>>     beneficial
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... vs someone taking CSV from data.gov.uk
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... and adding their own transform
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... they need something more self-contained
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... a single file to control the transformation
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... also whether the CSV was created without the web in
>>>     mind, or with the web in mind
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... particularly with spotting links & data formats
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... Gregg is going to look at pulling out his transform
>>>     description to apply it independently of JSON-LD
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... we're hopeful that there will be commonality in
>>>     conversion to JSON
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... which kind of depends on whether the conversion is
>>>     to JSON-LD
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... had a good chat with Ivan when we met up
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... comments on what's been written would be great
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... it's a bit scruffy, but the general approach is
>>>     there
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... I'm using the term 'basic mapping' rather than
>>>     'direct mapping'
>>>
>>>     <danbri> 'simple mapping'?
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... there's a progression of complexity
>>>
>>>     <danbri> 'wishfulthinking mapping'
>>>
>>>     <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask status of test case csvs for
>>>     this exploration
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> danbri: are there test files?
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> AndyS: there's tests in the repo
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> danbri: are they mainstream examples or test cases?
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> AndyS: the test ones from gkellogg are focused
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> danbri: we'd like mainstream examples
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> AndyS: I've put some of those in the document
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... if you could work through one of the examples you
>>>     want to put in, that would be great, like jtandy did
>>>
>>>     <danbri>
>>>     [12]https://github.com/w3c/csvw/blob/gh-pages/examples/simple-w
>>>     eather-observation.md
>>>
>>>       [12]
>>>
>>> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/blob/gh-pages/examples/simple-weather-observation.md
>>>
>>>     JTandy: we also talked about was charter and metadata in RDF
>>>     ... may be distinct from the mapping framing (not in RDF)
>>>     ... want to test this with WG.
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> AndyS: yes, metadata about the CSV file may or may not
>>>     be in RDF
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... it might be simpler to have one language that
>>>     drives all the mappings
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... which might include provenance etc
>>>
>>>     <phila> from the charter "The vocabulary should be defined, or
>>>     should have an encoding, in standard RDF and, wherever possible
>>>     and appropriate, should refer to, and reuse, existing
>>>     vocabularies developed elsewhere." - i.e. it doesn't have to
>>>     *only* be in RDF
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... even in JSON-LD, the context part isn't RDF
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> jtandy: we talked about gkellogg pulling out the
>>>     transformation stuff from JSON-LD to see if it could be
>>>     expressed in Turtle
>>>
>>>     jeniT: easy to write might mean TTL
>>>     ... want to see the things it will say to guide the syntax
>>>     choice.
>>>     ... separating CSV-specific xform from JSON-LD will be good.,
>>>     ... nudged Rufus and Ross Jones re JSON.
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> [13]https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Conversions
>>>
>>>       [13] https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Conversions
>>>
>>>     <danbri> aside - another JSON-LD launch at google this week:
>>>     [14]https://devsite.googleplex.com/webmasters/business-location
>>>     -pages/schema.org-examples (i.e. we like JSON-LD)
>>>
>>>       [14]
>>>
>>> https://devsite.googleplex.com/webmasters/business-location-pages/schema.org-examples
>>>
>>> Model for tabular data
>>>
>>>     jenit: e.g. import into relational DB
>>>
>>>     davide: may have some interesting data as example
>>>
>>>     <jtandy> danbri - that looks like an internal link (googleplex)
>>>     ... just tried it :-)
>>>
>>>     subtopic: null fields
>>>
>>>     <JeniT>
>>>     [15]http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/#core-tabular-data-model
>>>
>>>       [15] http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/#core-tabular-data-model
>>>
>>>     jenit: "What is a null field" comment from D Booth
>>>     ... absent and empty : same? different?
>>>
>>>     jtandy: in the discussion, defaults value need to be handled.
>>>
>>>     <danbri> lost audio
>>>
>>>     jtandy: empty field returned. Have a explicit "null" marker
>>>     (999, whatever)
>>>
>>>     subtopic: packaging
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> [16]http://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/
>>>
>>>       [16] http://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/
>>>
>>>     jenit: TAG work
>>>
>>>     <jtandy> the "999" marker would be declared in the metadata
>>>     annotation as a token indicating a "null field" / missing field
>>>
>>>     jenit: need arises in various places
>>>     ... general need for web development
>>>     ... we need to do similar - CSV(s) and metadata
>>>
>>>     <JeniT>
>>>     [17]http://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/#downloading-d
>>>     ata-for-local-processing
>>>
>>>       [17]
>>>
>>> http://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/#downloading-data-for-local-processing
>>>
>>>     jenit: link to draft of the TAG direction with a specific
>>>     example for this WG
>>>     ... individual file are still on the web
>>>     ... but that a "package fetch" pulls them all at once.
>>>     ... individual files LInk back to their metadata
>>>     ... streamable proposed based on multi-part
>>>     ... comments invited
>>>
>>>     <jtandy> ok - packaging stuff looks interesting
>>>
>>>     <phila> no questions but it's interesting, thank you
>>>
>>>     danbri: Other groups feedback?
>>>
>>>     jenit: no HTTP changes
>>>
>>>     danbri: what about HTTP layer optimizations? e.g. caching
>>>
>>>     jenit: overlap with HTTP/2
>>>     ... would need packaging aware caching to cache sub parts but
>>>     format allows cache header per part
>>>     ... will write to the list
>>>
>>>     subtopic: metadata packaging
>>>     ... metadata format
>>>
>>>     jenit: hold back until we know what's in it
>>>
>>>     jtandy: been looking at "Simple Data Packaging" (now renamed)
>>>     looks very close
>>>     ... start from that?
>>>
>>>     jenit: Would be good to start from there - except it assumes
>>>     JSON.
>>>
>>>     jtandy: start with the JSON assumption and see how it is
>>>     received on WD
>>>
>>>     <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to say start from SDP as a
>>>     *vocabulary* is fine, but something that fits with RDF is also
>>>     important
>>>
>>>     danbri: schema.org ==> vocabulary start good, but syntax of
>>>     JSON only might be a barrier.
>>>
>>>     <jtandy> +1 to taking SDP metadata and expressing in RDF over
>>>     JSON-LD
>>>
>>>     phila: Uncomfortable if excludes the dataprotocols work when it
>>>     need not.
>>>     ... significant community
>>>     ... at least add conversions to/from.
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> AndyS: I think there was something that said the data
>>>     package might become JSON-LD
>>>
>>>     <danbri> i can't find a good link for SDF, was it renamed?
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... I'd like to get a sense of how successful that
>>>     format has been
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... and if there are any others
>>>
>>>     <danbri> [18]http://dataprotocols.org/tabular-data-package/
>>>
>>>       [18] http://dataprotocols.org/tabular-data-package/
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... I thought it was a good starting point, but I
>>>     realised I didn't know what the reception had been
>>>
>>>     jenai: DSPL alternative
>>>
>>>     jenit: DSPL alternative
>>>
>>>     <danbri> DSPL is [19]https://developers.google.com/public-data/
>>>     ; Omar I mentioned earlier was working to migrate this to
>>>     schema.org / RDF / JSON world
>>>
>>>       [19] https://developers.google.com/public-data/
>>>
>>>     <danbri> [20]https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/LookInside
>>>
>>>       [20] https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/LookInside
>>>
>>>     jenit: used the format in our (ODI) tools
>>>     ... and providing feedback (ldodds)
>>>     ... would they contrib a draft?
>>>
>>>     phila: Rufus is IE in this WG because it helps align the work.
>>>     ... this WG will likely go beyond that work as extensions.
>>>     Maybe WG NOTE for existing work.
>>>
>>>     <danbri> I'd suggest we take it as expressivity requirements
>>>     and we 'should' at least have a clear mapping
>>>
>>>     jenit: will contact Rufus
>>>     ... can we take into account data package work?
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> ... in the conversions
>>>
>>>     <JeniT> [21]http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/#package
>>>
>>>       [21] http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/#package
>>>
>>>     jenit: AOB?
>>>
>>>     jtandy: timescales?
>>>     ... next publication esp UCR doc?
>>>
>>>     phila: no lower limit on repub cycle
>>>
>>>     jtandy: Happen to move forward in May
>>>
>>>     <jtandy> s /Happen/Happy/
>>>
>>>     jenit: UCR will remain "open" to capture new discoveries.
>>>
>>>     jtandy: requirements are placeholders, more categorization and
>>>     "accept" requirements
>>>
>>>     jenit: aim of mid May with more UCs.
>>>     ... ??
>>>     ... after Easter , process to accept requirements.
>>>
>>>     danbri: propose skip next week
>>>
>>>     <jtandy> +1 to skip
>>>
>>>     danbri to chair next time, 2 weeks time. Wed after Easter.
>>>
>>>     ADJOURNED
>>>
>>>     <phila> DNM 23 April
>>>
>>
>
> --
>
>
> Phil Archer
> W3C Data Activity Lead
> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>
> http://philarcher.org
> +44 (0)7887 767755
> @philarcher1
Received on Wednesday, 9 April 2014 13:34:17 UTC

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