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Verifiable Claims Telecon Minutes for 2016-09-06

From: <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 14:09:52 -0400
Message-Id: <1473185392618.0.15067@zoe>
To: Web Payments IG <public-webpayments-ig@w3.org>, Credentials CG <public-credentials@w3.org>
Thanks to Shane McCarron for scribing this week! The minutes
for this week's Verifiable Claims telecon are now available:

http://w3c.github.io/vctf/meetings/2016-09-06/

Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio from the meeting is available as well (link provided below).

----------------------------------------------------------------
Verifiable Claims Telecon Minutes for 2016-09-06

Agenda:
  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments-ig/2016Sep/0003.html
Topics:
  1. Quick introduction from Pindar Wong
  2. F2F Meeting at IIW
  3. Verifiable Claims Implementations to Demo
  4. Verifiable Claims RC-2 Draft Charter Feedback
  5. Estonian E-Residency Face-to-Face
  6. Planning for W3C TPAC
  7. Interplanetary File System and Verifiable Claims
Organizer:
  Manu Sporny
Scribe:
  Shane McCarron
Present:
  Shane McCarron, Pindar Wong, Manu Sporny, Christopher Allen, Dan 
  Burnett, Matt Stone, Tim Holborn, Dave Crocker, Adrian Gropper, 
  Dave Longley, David Ezell, Matt Collier, Rob Trainer, Eric Korb, 
  David I. Lehn, Colleen Kennedy, Adam Lake, Richard Varn, Les 
  Chasen
Audio:
  http://w3c.github.io/vctf/meetings/2016-09-06/audio.ogg

Shane McCarron is scribing.

Topic: Quick introduction from Pindar Wong

Pindar Wong:  Chairman of VeriFi Hong Kong [scribe assist by Manu 
  Sporny]
  ... Long standing member of the Web Payments community group.  
  Interest here is convergence of Verifiable Claims and Blockchain 
  stuff in Hong Kong.
  ... Also interested in eid.cn

Topic: F2F Meeting at IIW

Manu Sporny:  F2F meeting scheduled.
Manu Sporny: 
  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2016Aug/0115.html
  ... going to miss a couple of people because of various 
  conflicts.
  ... Coinciding with IIW.  Oct 27 and 28.  Last day of IIW and 
  the Friday.
  ... Thanks to IIW people.  They are excited to have us there.  
  We are excited to be there.  Lots of common interests.
Christopher Allen: Also, #RebootingWebOfTrust is three days 
  before http://www.weboftrust.info/
Manu Sporny:  They will be providing food etc.  All you need to 
  do is buy a ticket.  There is a discount code there.  Use the 
  links in the email to register.
  ...Before IIW is the rebooting web of trust workshop.  1.5 
  weeks of claims / identity / blockchain stuff.  Good opportunity.
Pindar Wong: Will it be livestreamed?
Christopher Allen: No.
Pindar Wong: Ok, thanks
Manu Sporny:  The thing we need to do by the time this rolls 
  around is have the agenda down and presenters sorted.
  ... Right now it will be open to the public.  No W3C Working 
  Group yet.
Dan Burnett: Is there any chance for remote participation for the 
  two days of VCTF?
Manu Sporny:  Focus upon technical work.  We do have a 1 day F2F 
  agenda so far.  Hoping to have 1.5 days through Friday at 3 PM so 
  people can fly out on the Friday.
Manu Sporny:  Will try to have dial in numbers.  It may not be 
  possible.  We don't know yet.
Matt Stone: Ironic that connectivity is problematic...
Tim Holborn: Google hangouts?
Christopher Allen: They don't have great connectivity unless the 
  conferences pays a lot extra for it.
Manu Sporny:  The issue is not whether we want to do it.  We 
  could set up something but connectivity can be a problem.
Dave Crocker: 404 On charter link:  The W3C page for this task 
  force includes a link to the "widely socialized" charter that 
  doesn't work: 
  https://w3c.github.io/webpayments-ig/VCTF/charter/vcwg-draft.html
Manu Sporny: Dave Crocker, Sorry, this is the latest one - 
  https://w3c.github.io/webpayments-ig/VCTF/charter/rc-2.html

Topic: Verifiable Claims Implementations to Demo

Christopher Allen:  One of the goals of RWOT is to initially 
  replicate what PGP does as far as web of trust is concerned.
  ... with more modern technolgies / approaches.
  ... One thing that PGP does is establish a peer chain.
  ... we would like to get that implemented with some kind of 
  self-signed claim.  Demonstrate validity.  Then talk about more 
  difficult things like trust anchors, chain points, and other 
  things that we would like to propose during RWOT
  ...  I have raised a little bit of funds.. there might be some 
  interest.  if other people have time available or want to 
  participate in different ways let ChristopherA know.
  ... goal is a quick hack of self signed claims and peer 
  attestations.
Adrian Gropper: I am interested
Tim Holborn: Perhaps post a note in 
  https://www.w3.org/community/rww/ also - as it's a complimentary 
  group, with additional people who are aware of linked-data
Dave Longley: If we have time we can throw something together
Manu Sporny:  Anyone interested in doing thinking or 
  implementation work?
Manu Sporny:  Digital bazaar is notionally interested.  Happy to 
  help out.
Shane McCarron:  Spec-Ops is interested...
Christopher Allen: Thank you!
Manu Sporny:  This is all to the good.  We need implementations 
  for VC... and this is part of it,.

Topic: Verifiable Claims RC-2 Draft Charter Feedback

Manu Sporny: 
  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2016Aug/0019.html
Manu Sporny:  We developed this and send it out at the beginning 
  of August.  We have received no feedback.
  ... pinged every week.
Tim Holborn:  Planning to review the charter still.  No formal 
  feedback yet.
David Ezell:  I have concerns.  I know that we have a session 
  planned for VC at F2F in Lisbon.  I am letting you know that 
  having that session sends the right message to management.  I 
  would like to keep that session.
  ... let's work together to develop the content and convey the 
  concerns about the delays.
Manu Sporny:  Current plan is to try to socialize it widely at 
  W3C.  Be careful about how we say things about the involvement of 
  W3M.  It would be good to get some feedback from Wendy before 
  TPAC.
  ... we need to know what is happening or if they are just too 
  busy.
David Ezell:  I think it is doubtful that it is willful ignoring.
  ... I don't know what is going on in W3C.  Maybe they are 
  trying to not cloud the water with other issues because of all 
  the things on the ACs table.
Manu Sporny:  Two opportunities.  On Wednesday there is an 
  unconference portion.  Also during the Web Payments IG meeting.  
  We have a VC session there as well.
Manu Sporny:  We will continue to reach out to Wendy and MS.  
  Google as well.
Christopher Allen: +Q To a certain point I'm proceeding even if 
  W3C does not.
Pindar Wong: +1 ChristpherA
Christopher Allen:  I am proceeding even if W3C does not.  We 
  have several years of maturity.  There are lots of people in the 
  BC area who are interested in interoperability.  There aren't 
  other soltuions for us.
Adrian Gropper:  Is it possible to know who at MS is involved in 
  the conversation?
Manu Sporny:  Mike Champion.  Anthony Nadlin. Daniel Buchner. Kim 
  Cameron and his team. Microsoft doesn't seem to be pushing back 
  as strongly as they were at the beginning.  Some other naes 
  (scribe failure).
Adrian Gropper:  I might be able to reach out top privacy / legal 
  people.
Dave Longley: http://openid.net/foundation/leadership/ <-- 
  "Anthony Nadalin"
Manu Sporny:  Can you send me the names if you do so that I can 
  get it assembled into a list.
  ... just to be clear we have no contacts with have no contacts 
  in that side of MS.
Manu Sporny:  Just to echo what ChristopherA was saying... many 
  of us are proceeding without W3C.  We have customers who want in 
  and we need to move

Topic: Estonian E-Residency Face-to-Face

Manu Sporny: http://www.futureofidentity.org/
Manu Sporny:  The estonian program is one of the most advanced in 
  the world.
  ... we had a week long meeting in estonia where they flew in 50 
  to 70 people to talk about things related to verifiable claims.  
  EResidency, EIdentity - launching things via the programs.
Tim Holborn: Brave new world...
Manu Sporny:  If you want to you can apply for EResidency in 
  Estonia.  They verify who you are and then they will issue you an 
  ID card you can use for binding agreements, open bank accounts, 
  use certain services etc.
  ... sign contracts, hire people.
  ... They want to shift over to a more standardized ecosystem.  
  Something that will scale more with the web.  Talked to many 
  people who are interested in VC - digital identity.
  ... lots of companies want ways to standardize verifiable 
  claims.
  ... Next steps? Give people information on the VCTF and let 
  them join.  Manu is on the advisory board of the eResidency 
  program.
Pindar Wong: Thanks Manu!
  ... they are planning on meeting again in a year.  If anyone 
  has a chance of going, I urge you to do so.  They have more 
  foresight than most.

Topic: Planning for W3C TPAC

Manu Sporny:  The message at TPAC is that the work is starting.  
  The kickoff meeting is at IIW.  Double / Triple up on travel.  We 
  have a charter that W3C is reviewing.  We are not waiting on that 
  stuff to be approved to begin work.  We will continue to build 
  the community and move to implem entations to get things 
  deployed.
  ... Two opportunities.  Wednesday unconference.  IG Meeting.
  ... socialize information.  Recruit members and support.
  ... We need to develop a slide deck for TPAC.
  ... Manu will take the action for that.
  ... We need to have the IIW Agenda together.  Rely heavily on 
  other people in the group on presenting viewpoints.
Christopher Allen: I will not be at TPAC but Marta will be.
Christopher Allen: I will be at IIW
Christopher Allen:  Work on VC.  ShaneM talk about use cases. Go 
  over the specification that we have so far.  Time level setting 
  with everyone,.
Pindar Wong: Nope

Topic: Interplanetary File System and Verifiable Claims

Manu Sporny:  We started discussing this last week.  It has to do 
  with decentralized identifiers.
  ... We are talking with the IPFS folks.  We have had a number 
  of discussions about this.
  ... the main use for IPFS would be as a publically verifiable 
  claim.
  .... We are also talking with BigChainDB about VC.
  ... What they are focused on are putting IP ownership into 
  blockchains.  Put a signature on it.  Have ownership data in a 
  blockchain.
  ... build on IPFS.
  .... I know that Les and Drummond are looking at DiDs as well.
Christopher Allen:  We clearly identified at RWoT that making 
  progress on decentralized IDs created from BC technologies is a 
  good idea.  Started drafting requirements.  github repo from 
  RWoT.
Dave Longley: 
  https://github.com/WebOfTrustInfo/ID2020DesignWorkshop/blob/master/draft-documents/requirements-for-dids.md
  ... most parties are avoiding the name problem to allow 
  creation of IDs that people an claim and verify.  Allow key 
  rotation etc.  Important aspect of trust anchors.
  ... Some people are looking at this hard already.
Manu Sporny: 
  https://github.com/WebOfTrustInfo/ID2020DesignWorkshop/blob/master/final-documents/requirements-for-dids.pdf
  ... These will be discussed at RWoT in October.
Christopher Allen:  I also have some things I wanted to talk 
  about with JSON-LD and chain points.  There is no JSON-LD working 
  group...
Manu Sporny:  Later.
Adrian Gropper:  Consenus folks are also using IPFS as part of 
  their DiD project.
Christopher Allen: Consensys
Manu Sporny:  Christian and I sat down in Estonia.  We talked 
  about having namespaced IDs and the complexity it brings to the 
  system.  Hopefully everyone would agree on a not-yet existing BC 
  that could exist and act as a centralized source.
  ... we talked about areas of technical complexity we want to 
  avoid.
Manu Sporny:  While there is no JSON-LD working group, the RWoT 
  space is a fine place to do that work.
Tim Holborn:  How inbred is BC?  Is it a mandatory feature of the 
  VC work?
Manu Sporny:  It depends on how far in the future you look.  A 
  number of us (christopher, adrian, DB, blockstack, respec 
  network, parts of MS) believe that we will have to ahve some sort 
  of decentralized legder for claims stuff.
  ... it naturally addresses that problem.
  ... for VC you can use it with BC and BC protocols.  It is not 
  an absolute requirement.  For example for many years we have tied 
  them to URLs but there are limitations there.
Dave Longley: To be clear, the lock-in occurs with HTTPS URLs
  ... for decentralized identifiers I think BC is a requriement.  
  For VC not really.
Dave Longley: Decentralized identifiers are likely to be 
  implemented as URLs, but with a new scheme where they would be 
  located on a decentralized ledger of some sort
Christopher Allen:  There are risks of putting too much info on 
  blockchains.  A lot of our work is in determinuing what is truly 
  essential.  Have persistent identifiers witout the long term risk 
  of putting too much information on immutable ledgers.
Tim Holborn: +Comment.
  ... my goal is to put as little as possible.  Have BC be trust 
  anchors.  To avoid the X.509 hierarchy problem.
Tim Holborn:  There was work on thigns (WebDHT, IPFS, etc).  I 
  understand proof of existence and the value.  I worry about 
  overly tieing VC to BC since it might turn off some stakeholders.
Christopher Allen: As I see it VC doesn't require BC or 
  chainpoint
Christopher Allen: But we do want compatibility with those
Manu Sporny:  If we tie too closely to BC we might lose a chunk 
  of the community.  They are loosely coupled.  There is no 
  requirement for BC in VC.  Rather, there are use cases where it 
  makes a great choice.
Dave Longley: There are several layers in the design.
  ... We need Interoperability and we need to permit the use of 
  BC.
Manu Sporny:  You mention WebDHT.  WebDHT always had the idea of 
  a history mechanism.  The more we looked at it we needed a 
  ledger.  Then the only advantage of WebDHT was a ton of data.
  ... because of what has happened with storage recently we think 
  that there will not be a problem with storing identity history in 
  the BC.  Storage technology is scaling faster than the rate at 
  which we need to allocate IDs.
Christopher Allen: Also, chainpoint is a merkle tree with only 
  the root in a blockchain. It is up to the client to store the 
  leaves to verify it.
  ... we are now putting our energy into ledgers as a way to 
  solving the decentralized ID problem.
Dave Longley: Don't confuse "blockchain" with "proof of work"
Tim Holborn:  There is a very different thing between web scale 
  vs. social scale.  2.4Bn people on the planet don't have access 
  to electricity for most of a day.
Christopher Allen: #RebootingWebOfTrust is working with the UN 
  ID2020 and has a number of people working on the
  ... I have worked on BC a lot.  I see the relationship.
Manu Sporny:  We are engaging the ID202 and estonian program.  We 
  are engaging people workin gon the refugee problem.
Tim Holborn: https://www.iea.org/topics/energypoverty/
  ... talked with a former bank CEO who is now working on the 
  outreach problem.
  ... I think Tim's concerns are good and we have the same 
  concerns.
Tim Holborn:  Not an easy problem to solve.
Pindar Wong: Thanks everyone ... a very informative call!
Pindar Wong: Bye!
Christopher Allen: 
  https://github.com/WebOfTrustInfo/ID2020DesignWorkshop/blob/master/final-documents/protecting-digital-identities-in-developing-countries.pdf
Received on Tuesday, 6 September 2016 18:10:29 UTC

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