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Verifiable Claims Telecon Minutes for 2016-11-01

From: <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 13:10:25 -0400
Message-Id: <1478020225769.0.24113@zoe>
To: Web Payments IG <public-webpayments-ig@w3.org>, Credentials CG <public-credentials@w3.org>
Thanks to Les Chasen for scribing this week! The minutes
for this week's Verifiable Claims telecon are now available:


Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio from the meeting is available as well (link provided below).

Verifiable Claims Telecon Minutes for 2016-11-01

  1. Rebooting Web of Trust
  2. Internet Identity Workshop #23
  3. Verifiable Claims Face-to-Face
  4. Intro to Phil Archer from W3C
  5. Responses to VC Concerns
  Manu Sporny
  Les Chasen
  Les Chasen, Manu Sporny, Drummond Reed, Phil Archer, Nathan 
  George, Matt Stone, Richard Varn, Gregg Kellogg, Pindar Wong, 
  Katie Haritos-Shea, Eric Korb, Carla Casilli, Kerri Lemoie, David 
  Chadwick, Shane McCarron, Dave Longley, Stuart Sutton, Rob 
  Trainer, Adam Lake, David I. Lehn, Rebecca Simmons, Matthew 

Les Chasen is scribing.
Manu Sporny:  We've had multiple face-to-face meetings over the 
  past two weeks - Rebooting web of trust, Internet Identity 
  Workshop, Verifiable Claims Face-to-face
Manu Sporny:  We will review f2f meetings and updates from the 
Manu Sporny:  Weekly mtgs to transition to the new chairs, 
  Richard Varn and Matt Stone.

Topic: Rebooting Web of Trust

Manu Sporny: Outcomes from Rebooting Web of Trust - 
Manu Sporny:  Item 1 WoT review. chaired by Christopher Allen. 
  way to get stuff done. shipping is number 1 goal
Manu Sporny:  DID a big topic
Manu Sporny: DID specification (older version): 
Drummond Reed:  Seeds planted at WoT meeting 1. Respect Network 
  obtained a DHS phase 1 grant to study DID on the blockchain. Been 
  advancing the work through the WoT meetings
Drummond Reed:  WD03 submitted at beginning - Persistent 
  identifiers similar to URNs that are registerable without 
Drummond Reed:  Contain cryptgraphic idnetifiers (CID). 
  Structured with a DDO (DiD Object)
Drummond Reed:  DDO contains a control block with permissions for 
Drummond Reed:  During the session submited DID WD 04
Manu Sporny:  DID started within the VCTF. Thanks to Drummond for 
  driving it forward
Manu Sporny: Outcomes for Verfiable Claims from RWoT III: 
Drummond Reed: The current DID Working Draft spec, now heading 
  towards WD05, is at 
Manu Sporny: 
Manu Sporny:  Security and privacy considerations section added 
  to the spec
Manu Sporny:  Extended the LD data to include public signatures, 
  pseudononimous identifiers and multi sig natures
Manu Sporny: https://w3.org/community/digital-verification/
Manu Sporny:  Harlan Wood and Noah Thorpe implemented verifiable 
  claims at WoT
Drummond Reed:  It was remarkable how verifiable claims have 
  become a number one topic during RWOT
Manu Sporny:  We still have a bit of work to do to raise the 
  questions over the work to the w3c mgmt
Drummond Reed: Yes, I agree with Manu that the assumptions of the 
  RWOT attendees that verifiable claims were "just there" was a 
  little dangerous

Topic: Internet Identity Workshop #23

Manu Sporny: We did two sessions there - the first - Intro to 
  Verifiable Claims: 
Drummond Reed: They didn't really understand how much work 
  remains to get them to a standard.
Manu Sporny:  Continuted to discuss verfiable claims on the first 
  day. there were 44 people attending out of 180 at IIW
Manu Sporny:  Day 1 good but healthy skepticism ... great push 
  back with great answers
Manu Sporny: Deep Dive on Verifiable Claims: 
Manu Sporny:  1 Hour was not enough time ...asked to do a deep 
  dive on day 2
Nathan George: (These links may move as they are archived) 
Manu Sporny:  35-40 People to attend on day 2. lots of Q&A
Nathan George: 
Manu Sporny:  Concerns were discussed over the next 2 days
Manu Sporny:  Thurs and Fri were the VCTF f2f meetings
Manu Sporny: Pictures from Verifiable Claims at IIW: 
Manu Sporny:  The link above shows the people that attended ... 
  good number
Manu Sporny:  IIW team invited VCTF to come back ... they felt it 
  was great for the communities to come together ... good synergies
Drummond Reed:  DID and IIW - took WD04 into a another intensive 
  session. Focus on how to provide internet scale identity. went 
  deep into DDOs
Drummond Reed:  DID's work independently sponsored by DHS ... not 
  yet part of a standards group. Goal to get the spec done this 
Drummond Reed:  1 For sovrin, 1 for bitcoin and a couple of 
  etherium methods to be specied
Matt Stone:  Great discussions - have to be careful as we debate 
  the big topics of verifiable claims vis-a-vis community group and 
  data model spec charted by W3C [scribe assist by Matt Stone]

Topic: Verifiable Claims Face-to-Face

Manu Sporny: Minutes from Day One: 
Manu Sporny:  Unofficial mtg of the VCTF met thursday and friday
Manu Sporny: Minutes from Day two: 
Manu Sporny:  Very productive .. lots of level setting. thanks to 
  chairs for keeping us on track
Manu Sporny:  Overview of tech, long term concerns such as 
  signature formats. reviewed data models.
Richard Varn:  Felt that new people added great value. 
  appreciated the overlap with the IIW gang
Matt Stone:  Echo richard's statements. lot of work to do where 
  the boundaries are
Matt Stone:  Challanging to stay focused on the two domains. 
  First is data model/syntax, second is business rules layered on 
  top of that.
Drummond Reed: I have to drop off the call now, but I agree that 
  the in-person meeting was highly productive and informative 
  (especially for the new folks)
Manu Sporny:  Great sessions... should do it again

Topic: Intro to Phil Archer from W3C

Manu Sporny:  Phil archer from w3c has joined the call today
Phil Archer:  Role to work on data related standards, I used to 
  be the Data Activity Lead, now I'm the Data Strategist.
Phil Archer:  Ask to marshal us through the process
Phil Archer:  Thanks to the team for doing much of the leg work. 
  will help on final charter items
Phil Archer:  Need to get with the chairs and better understand 
  the goals.
Gregg Kellogg: +1 To Phil, he’s been great to work with.
Manu Sporny:  We are happy to have Phil as our advisor
Pindar Wong: +1
Katie Haritos-Shea: +1
Phil Archer:  I have a question for the group. If you have an 
  implemenation and someone comes up with a new point that changes 
  the spec are you willing to change your implementation to match 
  with the new updates?
Eric Korb: Accreditrust will update to comply with specs adopted 
  by W3C
Manu Sporny:  I can only speak for Digital Bazaar's 
  implementation of Verifiable Claims. I know Accreditrust also has 
  one, he'll have to speak for Accreditrust. you have to be careful 
  about how you ask that question, there are many people here that 
  have implemented open badges and are integrating them into 
  Verifaible Claims. So, those people will have to speak up as 
  well. For those that have implemented, please speak up now.
Richard Varn:  We're in the OpenBadge implementation space, the 
  reason we haven't done more is because it doesn't meet our needs 
  for Verifiable Claims, we've implemented, but are anticipating 
  changes and we, ETS, are willing and needing to implement changes 
  in the spec.
Carla Casilli: The open badges spec is shifting hands to IMS 
  Global 1/1/2017, so that question is a larger question than it 
  was in the past.
Kerri Lemoie:  I can't speak for OpenBadges, but I am in that 
  group and we are working on Open Badges v2 and we are in a place 
  to adopt changes in Verifiable Claims and update our 
David Chadwick:  We have an implementation that we've done, it's 
  not standardized, done some of our own stuff based on FIDO 
  protocol, we want to update/change, dependent on funding at 
Nathan George:  At Evernym (company), we've been working on a 
  reference implementation of Verifiable Claims inside of the 
  Sovrin Ledger (product). We're already in discussion on how we 
  can make our implementation of Verifiable Claims and Zero 
  Knowledge Proofs match what's being done in the Working Group.
Matt Stone:  Hi, Matt Stone from Pearson. We have a product 
  called Acclaim that is an implementation of Open Badges, driving 
  needs that we're talking about in Verifiable Claims. Our 
  challenge is to bring these things together so they're less 
  discretely different.
Manu Sporny:  So Phil, I hope that answers your question, we have 
  organizations that have implemented and they're willing to update 
  their implementations based on potential Verifiable Claims WG 
Eric Korb:  Eric Korb from Accreditrust, we have implementatoins 
  of Verifiable Claims data format, also integrated Open Badges, we 
  can support both formats. We believe Verifiable Claims format is 
  the best one. We are very open to adopting what happens with the 
  spec, we have seen the "proof in the pudding". We are also very 
  involved in Open Badges and IMS Global, so we're happy to join 
  forces and bring these groups together in a common standard.
Phil Archer:  I imagine that there will be some changes but they 
  should be a small delta. This has happened for PoE and ODRL. No 
  one wants to rewrite everything, some delta may come up, some 
  willingness to change is good.
Phil Archer:  Glad to see the willingness for changes
Eric Korb:  Happy to join forces in bringing different groups 
  together such as the open badge alliance
Manu Sporny:  Open badges alliance representation is here and 
Eric Korb: IMS announced last week they will be taking over the 
  stewardship of the OBI
Matt Stone: +IMSGlobal taking over Open Badges on Jan1
Matt Stone:  Willingness to conform by bigger players is 
  important as interoperability is a must
Richard Varn: Also, we are members of IMS global as are several 
  others here and we so will be attached to the OBI work through 
  the new effort at IMS overseeing it
Kerri Lemoie:  Intro to openbadges
Kerri Lemoie:  Mozilla started ... IMS Global taking over 
  ownership of the spec - 
Manu Sporny:  Look at Open Badges as a vocabulary .. we've been 
  working with the Open Badges Community - director of OBI comes to 
  these calls, it is linked data, fits in well with Verifiable 
Richard Varn: IMS Global is taking over ownership of the spec
Kerri Lemoie: https://openbadgespec.org/

Topic: Responses to VC Concerns

Manu Sporny:  Last agenda item: responses to the VC work
Manu Sporny: 
Manu Sporny:  Input is mostly from Tantek from Mozilla, 
  Microsoft, Google, and Akamai
Gregg Kellogg: Tantek’s sig indicates he’s Web Standards Lead at 
  Mozilla, so this would seem to be an official response to me.
Manu Sporny:  Tantek is asking if this is all just cheerleeding 
  or is it real - are there implementations
Manu Sporny:  Yes it is real ... our discussions above are proof 
  of implementations
Manu Sporny:  We have lots of real participants who are comitted 
  to the effort and interoperability and implementations
Manu Sporny:  How shall we respond to these questions?
Manu Sporny:  Are there people implementing
Manu Sporny:  Do we need a working group
Manu Sporny:  Consensus at the f2f. yes there are people 
Manu Sporny:  We need a working group due to the number of 
  companies that want to come together to interopeable 
Manu Sporny:  Do we take these minutes or do we get members to 
  send emails with their commitments?
Katie Haritos-Shea:  Which use cases are important to you should 
  be communicated. concern is that the scope will be made too tight 
  such to be useless
Shane McCarron: Don't forget to include the link to the list of 
  implementor committments we got earlier
Manu Sporny:  Can send an email back refering to minutes and the 
  audio and CC those that spoke up as a response. This can start a 
  dialog with those that have expressed its importance
Richard Varn: They are  not becomes no one is....
Dave Longley:  We have done this exercise a number of times. 
  Unfortunately we still get push back that we are not real ... how 
  do we avoid spinning our wheels
Manu Sporny:  Send an email, site minutes, audio log, include 
  implementor commitments and include survey CC'ing everyone ... 
  does this sound like a plan?
Pindar Wong: Sounds like a plan
Dave Longley: And the questions aren't changing ... they aren't 
  saying why the answer is insufficient.
Dave Longley: +1 To Matt
Manu Sporny: +1 To Matt
Matt Stone:  Phil, how can we put the final nail in the coffin? 
  It feels like we have done this repeatedly.
Phil Archer:  This is new to me. Hopes this represents that  this 
  is a change in direction
Phil Archer:  Expects this to go through and there to be a 
  working group starting in Jan
Manu Sporny:  We will put that response together
Manu Sporny:  Calls should shift to technical issues
Katie Haritos-Shea: There is frustration, and hopefully we can 
  get to the work
Manu Sporny:  Will continue to be responsive to questions but we 
  should be getting more technical
Shane McCarron: I am pumped to get into the spec work again!!!
Pindar Wong: Thanks much ... great call everyone!
Kerri Lemoie: Excellent work all. Thank you!
Manu Sporny:  Will not be able to attend next week ... talking 
  about Verifiable Claims in Chicago to Insurance Industry
Received on Tuesday, 1 November 2016 17:10:56 UTC

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