W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-credentials@w3.org > June 2015

Re: Mitigating DDoS via Proof of Patience

From: Dave Longley <dlongley@digitalbazaar.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 12:07:23 -0400
Message-ID: <55916D3B.50300@digitalbazaar.com>
To: Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>
CC: Credentials Community Group <public-credentials@w3.org>
On 06/29/2015 11:11 AM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
> 
> No, I totally agree, it's a hard problem.  What you need is to cache the
> link from a time when the resource was there, or to get an out of band
> link, got some other kind of meta credential showing that link.

Simple caching won't work, you need a system of trust around it.
Consumers of credentials certainly won't have cached the credentials for
everyone on the Web, and they don't know who is going to visit their site.

> 
> Yep, it is definitely complex.  Maybe the old credential site could help
> facilitate the move.  I think whatever the solution it involves caching
> of the previous content, right? 

"Maybe X could help" still isn't the detail we need.

> OK, well let's acknowledge that it's a VERY hard problem to solve, with
> or without web architecture. 
> 
> I think perhaps two conversations are going on.
> 
> There's going to be a few ways to do it, all complex.  Independent on
> working out a solution to the problem, we need to work out the cost
> benefit here, if it's not an edge case, is it something in the critical
> path or optional.

This is what I was saying in my original email. There's going to be
complexity somewhere. So the choice is where you put it. I recommend
away from people (the users of the system) as much as possible. Bury it
in the infrastructure.

> A clean modular way of doing this, means each person can take the
> solution they prefer.  Perhaps this was what was in mind already, but it
> wasnt 100% clear.  So sorry, if we're discussing two separate points at
> the same time.

People should be able to do that with URLs as identifiers. However,
we're going to want a common, simple use case for most people because
they don't *want* to pick a solution. They don't know enough about the
problem and they don't want to even know it is a problem. They just want
to be able to get credentials, use them, and not lose them as they make
different choices on the Web.

In fact, relatively speaking, almost no one wants to know to details
here. Even for us technologists, having to think about the details at
all is tedious.

> 
> OK, that sounds excellent, and mitigates a lot of what I've said above. 
> I'm concerned in general about how prominent this feature would be, wrt
> increasing overall complexity vs utility.  That's just a subjective
> viewpoint, totally respect your point of view -- just from experience
> people starting new URI schemes tend to underestimate the challenge of
> integration.

Don't get me wrong, your point is well taken. We want this work to
succeed -- and we're trying to build it such that it can on various levels.

> 
> OK, I hear you.  My replies have been quite "hand wavy", and in part,
> that's because we seem to be at a new frontier.

:)

> 
> My experience of this was in creating a web version of the bitcoin block
> chain where each block is stored in /.well-known/ni/hash.  What I would
> have liked to do is have a sameAs relation to many different servers
> storing those hashes, creating a distributed database or block chain. 
> That way blocks can be verified from a number of places, and new blocks
> added (eg via HTTP PUT).  Longest chain wins ensures integrity.

One way we considered doing `dids` was via the blockchain. The problem
is that we don't want to tie them to a single public key and we also
don't want to use content-based addresses. Ideally, there would be some
magic DNS tech that let anyone claim a name, at no cost, and
cryptographically assert ownership over it. Then resolving that name
would take you to a trusted decentralized network that is somehow
incentivised to work. How's that for "hand-wavy"? :)

With the `did` scheme, we're trying to engineer something similar to
that but that operates at the Web (HTTP) level.

> 
> Totally agree.  My preference is to create implementations, as I think
> you do too.  I think it's going to be helpful, in this case, to have a
> clear idea of the problem statement, and how it fits into the bigger
> context.  Because there's a ton of applications for this technology and
> tons of little bits that can be solved with existing stuff. 
> 
> Really appreciate you taking the time to explain.

Sure. As always, we need more of this stuff written down in
easily-consumable documentation. :)


-- 
Dave Longley
CTO
Digital Bazaar, Inc.
Received on Monday, 29 June 2015 16:07:48 UTC

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