W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-comments-wcag20@w3.org > October 2011

Re: Techniques for WCAG 2.0: T3: Using standard text formatting conventions for headings (TXT)

From: Loretta Guarino Reid <lorettaguarino@google.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 13:35:54 -0700
Message-ID: <CAHu5OWbdD=BjGD8m=+nGJiMRDxkdXY1k7CjKQH-5-5afEkJYvg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Devarshi Pant <devarshipant@gmail.com>
Cc: "public-comments-wcag20@w3.org" <public-comments-wcag20@w3.org>
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:43 AM, Devarshi Pant <devarshipant@gmail.com>wrote:

> I read the plain text techniques at
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20081211/text.html, and did
> not find a reference that this pertains to plain text served off of the web,
> unless we made an assumption.
>
>
>
> The question is, should we expect someone to know that the techniques apply
> to plain text files served from the web. And, could someone assume that
> these techniques pertain to plain text files uploaded to the web? I think
> so. Strictly speaking, it should be, as it then relates to WCAG and has
> nothing to do with how the content was created. Once it is uploaded to the
> web, it becomes a part of it.
>
> To clear off any misgivings, can a modified title convey this point?
> Something like:
>
> “Plain Text Techniques for WCAG 2.0: Content served from Web” or,
>
> “Plain Text Techniques for WCAG 2.0: Content derived from Web”
>
> Alternatively, the ensuing description may convey this with a note.
> Something like:
>
> “Plain Text Techniques for WCAG 2.0
>
> This Web page lists Plain Text Techniques from Techniques for WCAG 2.0:
> Techniques and Failures for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 ...
>
> Note: Applicable to plain text files served from the web”
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Devarshi
>
> On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Loretta Guarino Reid <
> lorettaguarino@google.com> wrote:
>
>> The WCAG plain text techniques only apply to plain text files that are
>> being served from the web.  WCAG only addresses the required properties of
>> the content, not how the content is produced. So the distinctions that you
>> are drawing about how the text is created  are outside the scope of WCAG,
>> and the guidelines only discuss what is should be true about the results
>> served from the web.
>>
>> Does this help?
>>
>> Loretta
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 12:53 PM, Devarshi Pant <devarshipant@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Loretta, WCAG Editors,
>>> The page header, “Plain Text Techniques for WCAG 2.0” may cause
>>> confusion. Based on our earlier correspondence, of which a portion follows:
>>>
>>> > RE your question about a web page saved as text -- it is no longer a
>>> web
>>>
>>> page at that point and is not subject to WCAG. That being said, it would
>>>
>>> be good if the "save as text" routine would add the blank lines as per
>>> the
>>>
>>> techniques to indicate headings.
>>>
>>> Based on this logic, these techniques do not hold water, as every plain
>>> text document sits outside the purview of WCAG, simple because it is not
>>> considered web content. Therefore we should accommodate other plausible
>>> scenarios by changing our direction.
>>>
>>> We should be able to differentiate between:
>>>
>>>    1. A random text document which is created offline (where WCAG does
>>>    not come into play), vs.,
>>>     2. A text document saved from Webpage, vs.,
>>>    3. A text document uploaded to a webpage
>>>
>>> And focus only on 2) and 3) above.
>>>
>>> Following which, there should be two sets of techniques' pages, instead
>>> of ‘Plain Text Techniques’ to accommodate the additional scenarios :
>>>
>>>    1.  “Plain Text Techniques: Derivatives of Web content”
>>>    2. “Plain Text Techniques: Uploaded to the Web”
>>>
>>> Please let me know if I am making sense. Thanks, Devarshi
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 9:42 PM, Devarshi Pant <devarshipant@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> Devarshi
>>>>
>>>> On Thursday, September 29, 2011, Loretta Guarino Reid <
>>>> lorettaguarino@google.com> wrote:
>>>> > On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 8:02 PM, Akshobya <devarshipant@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Dear Working Group Members, at the risk of again sounding critical,
>>>> and considering the difficulty a random user might have in understanding
>>>> this technique, I would appreciate if the following text (your response,
>>>> which I slightly modified)  could be added to the description, which
>>>> follows:
>>>> >> "The programmatic identification of the Heading is the two blank
>>>> lines preceding it and one blank line succeeding it. Text documents are
>>>> necessarily void of underlying structure and so structure must be indicated
>>>> in the programmatic layout for screen readers. This programmatic layout will
>>>> enable screen readers to voice blank lines twice before the text that will
>>>> be considered as a heading.
>>>> >> A screen magnifier user would decipher headings by visually
>>>> identifying the space before it (or their technology may have Screen reader
>>>> capabilities that can identify the spaces)",
>>>> >> or something similar.
>>>> >> This makes the technique more comprehensible, with it's 'no
>>>> underlying structure' paradigm.  By the way, I would not have questioned
>>>> this technique if it had been made clear in the first place, and this  kind
>>>> of response exactly did that.
>>>> >> Regarding this technique, what happens when webpages are saved as
>>>> text documents? Would T3 be applicable in such cases?
>>>> >> Or, would a webpage need to be formatted such that when it's
>>>> underlying structure is removed, it conforms to T3?
>>>> >> Thanks,
>>>> >> Devarshi
>>>> >>
>>>> >  ================================
>>>> > Response from the Working Group
>>>> > ================================
>>>> > RE your question about a web page saved as text -- it is no longer a
>>>> web page at that point and is not subject to WCAG.   That being said, it
>>>> would be good if the "save as text" routine would add the blank lines as per
>>>> the techniques to indicate headings.
>>>> >
>>>> > We have added the following paragraph to the description:
>>>> >
>>>> > "The programmatic identification of the Heading is the two blank lines
>>>> preceding it and one blank line succeeding it. Text documents are
>>>> necessarily void of underlying structure and so structure must be indicated
>>>> in the programmatic layout for screen readers. This programmatic layout will
>>>> enable screen readers to voice blank lines twice before the text that will
>>>> be considered as a heading.
>>>> > A screen magnifier user would decipher headings by visually
>>>> identifying the space before it (or their technology may have Screen reader
>>>> capabilities that can identify the spaces)"
>>>> >
>>>> > Loretta Guarino Reid, WCAG WG Co-Chair
>>>> > Gregg Vanderheiden, WCAG WG Co-Chair
>>>> > Michael Cooper, WCAG WG Staff Contact
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On behalf of the WCAG Working Group
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> ================================
Response from the Working Group
================================
All of WCAG, not just the plain text techniques, applies to content served
from the web. See the definition of Web page in the WCAG glossary <
http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/#webpagedef>.

We feel it would be misleading to add this clause to the Plain Text
technique titles and not to all the other technique titles, and that adding
it everywhere would make it harder to understand techniques from their
titles.

Loretta Guarino Reid, WCAG WG Co-Chair
Gregg Vanderheiden, WCAG WG Co-Chair
Michael Cooper, WCAG WG Staff Contact
Received on Friday, 14 October 2011 20:36:21 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Friday, 14 October 2011 20:36:22 GMT