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[minutes] Thursday 20 February 2008 Teleconf

From: Francois Daoust <fd@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:35:55 +0100
Message-ID: <47E2926B.8070505@w3.org>
To: public-bpwg@w3.org

The minutes of today's call are available at:
http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-minutes.html
... and copied as text below.

François.


20 Mar 2008

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Mar/0059.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Bryan_Sullivan, DKA, Jason, SeanP, drooks, francois, jeffs,
           jo, kai

    Regrets
           Nacho, Abel, Miguel, Magnus, Dom, srowen, EdM, Adam, Shah,
           AlanC, rob, hgerlach, AlanTai, MartinJ, murari, kemp, Yeliz

    Chair
           DKA

    Scribe
           Bryan, Francois

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]CT Task Force report
          2. [6]BP2 update
          3. [7]Mobile OK Pro
          4. [8]Korean Task Force
          5. [9]ACTION-696 Summary of University of Helsinki thesis
          6. [10]ACTION-714 Response to MMA guidelines
      * [11]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

CT Task Force report

    <jeffs> tnx

    Francois: Making progress, with more problems arising. Difficult to
    speed things up, trying to get ready for FPWD. Editor's call next
    week, depending upon progress.
    ... in the current draft there are many red boxes showing issues
    that need resolution.

    <francois> [12]last CT draft

      [12] 
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080313

    Francois: there is one big issue but the little problems take time,
    e.g. detection of browsers and non-browsers. These sort of issues
    need more discussions, raise concerns/issues, etc.
    ... from 3.1.2 and beyond need work.On 4/3 we should be ready to
    review and make a decision on public draft.

    Dan: any other issues?

    Francois: TF activity is good, no need to discuss other things here.

    Dan: re the Mobile OK Pro TF, update is requested
    ... but with Kai not present, we will have to wait.

BP2 update

    <francois> ScribeNick: francois

    <DKA> Scribe: Francois

    <scribe> Scribe: francois

    <DKA> ScribeNick: francois

    Bryan: small update, I've yet to find cristallized things to add to
    the document
    ... I included some of Sean's Ajax techniques
    ... 5.11.1: a little bit of update
    ... In "provide alternatives to Ajax", I have a ref to
    [13]http://thinkingandmaking.com/entries/63
    ... It would be really useful if someone could have a look at it
    ... and crystallize it

      [13] http://thinkingandmaking.com/entries/63

    DKA: volunteer to turn that into "How to do it"?

    <jeffs> want me to?

    Bryan: by default, I'll do that if no one else does.

    jeffs: If you want me to take a look at this specific section
    (5.9.4), I'll do it over the week-end

    Bryan: jeffs, I think they have some good ideas, I just don't know
    how to express it.

    <jeffs> nuke?

    <scribe> ACTION: jeff to take a look at the ref in 5.9.4 and
    summarize it [recorded in
    [14]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - jeff

    <scribe> ACTION: Sonstein to take a look at the ref in 5.9.4 and
    summarize it [recorded in
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-719 - Take a look at the ref in 5.9.4
    and summarize it [on Jeffrey Sonstein - due 2008-03-27].

    Bryan: One exchange with francois which may be good: generalize
    "Minimize external script files" to "Minimize external files"
    ... in 5.5.6, not done in latest draft
    ... Very small change, but the issue of caching is an important one.
    ... In summary, I made a small update based on the discussions of
    the mailing-list, if I missed anything, feel free to tell me

    DKA: that's where actions to come up with BPs could be useful. I
    have one actually.

    Bryan: one question: we had two inputs from ETRI: one about the ADC
    and the seamless paper.
    ... I didn't exactly know what to do with that, and just turned them
    into general statements
    ... It would be useful to expand them

    DKA: Yes, I think we need more text in there. The best thing would
    be to raise this as an issue.

    <scribe> ACTION: Dan to raise an issue on extending BPs on ADC and
    seamless Korean inputs [recorded in
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-720 - Raise an issue on extending BPs
    on ADC and seamless Korean inputs [on Daniel Appelquist - due
    2008-03-27].

    Bryan: about improving DDC, where does that fit?

    DKA: we agreed there would be no DDC in the document.
    ... I think we're already addressing the Korean proposal here.

    <jeffs> looking for 5.9.4 reference in draft but not finding it...
    anyone point me to it?

    Bryan: device classification and appendix on device properties that
    may be important to request using the DDR.
    ... Any help on that would be useful.

    <Zakim> Kai, you wanted to ask about ddc

    Bryan: was trying to find actionable items about both Appendix A and
    B (Best Practice Dependent Device Properties and Classification of
    Devices)

    <jeffs> looking for 5.9.4 URI reference in draft but not finding
    it... anyone point me to it?

    <jeffs> thanks

    Kai: could someone remind me why we decided against ADC?

    DKA: [explaining the decision]. We've gone back and forth on that
    one. I don't want to do that once again.
    ... DDC, the fact that we put it in BP1, the fact that it was
    misunderstood by our Korean friends, typically show it probably
    wasn't a good idea

    Kai: I just have the feeling that ADC is what people need. I think
    it's a mistake, making the problem worse, rather than solving
    anything.

    DKA: we can open an issue on that Kai if you want to
    ... I think we structured the doc in BP2 so that we don't need an
    ADC.

    Kai: I think the issue is a good idea. I'll raise one not to have
    the group lose time on this.

Mobile OK Pro

    Kai: The London F2F was held, not strongly attended but very good
    progress made. Tackled more stringent repeatable test requirements.
    ... Interesting discussions about Mobile OK Pro and BP2, e.g. do we
    want RecTrack for Pro or remain a note; in the end creating
    guidelines imply room to comply.
    ... Good progress was made on interpreting test results.
    ... an updated document is available, but with 5 or 6 tests updated,
    unsure whether to put it on the website

    Dan: proposes to put a new draft on the website

    Kai: appeal to all for feedback when the new version is posted; on
    the text differences, and if the type of tests is valuable and we
    should proceed in this manner

    Dan: will you send an email for input?

    Kai: Yes

    Dan: re the Note vs RecTrack, the BP1 was RecTrack but
    non-normative; Mobile OK was normative. A note is less potent, so
    maybe this should be on the RecTrack

    Kai: Negative on publishing as a note, but should remain on plan for
    RecTrack

    Dan: any machine testable tests?

    Kai: Yes, and some should be supportable by checker

    Dan: Jo, anything to add on the Pro F2F?

    Jo: not other than the general discussions
    ... thought Pro could be made more machine testable by incorporating
    BP2

    Dan: is there an issue or action to move that forward?

    Kai: suggests to resolve subjectivity of the tests, taking that
    away. Also repeatability. Addressing those first is proposed, then
    address Pro as a whole e.g. relation to BP2

    <jeffs> firmly agree

    Kai: no proposed actions other than what is being done

Korean Task Force

    Dan: there were ideas of having a focus group to address Korean
    needs, meeting in Korea, able to report and interact with the group
    ... trying to get that idea going

    <jo> [have exchanged email with Seungyun and he will take it to his
    colleagues and get back to us]

ACTION-696 Summary of University of Helsinki thesis

    <francois> [17]thesis summary

      [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Mar/0061.html

    Francois: the document is long, related to analysis of AJAX
    performance, conclusion is that things are slow, and there is wide
    variance in performance

    <jo> ACTION-696?

    <trackbot-ng> ACTION-696 -- François Daoust to summarise the U
    Helsinki masters thesis on Mobile Ajax performance with a view to
    including some aspects into BP 2 -- due 2008-03-11 -- OPEN

    <trackbot-ng>
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/696

      [18] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/696

    Francois: there seems to be some interesting material to include or
    reference; not anything new necessarily, but some ideas about
    efficiency for performance purposes
    ... we can use it as emphasis for what we have written. Extracted
    some info from a Yahoo document, not sure if it is related to BP or
    not, e.g. reduce DNS lookups
    ... not sure if these are BP for mobile, but in the constrained
    environment this make more sense

    Bryan: this is usually an issue for non-proxied browsers (few) and
    specialized web applications, but it may be useful to look at

    Francois: one issue, re use of HTTP streaming, using persistent HTTP
    connections, may be valuable

    <jo> (keep-alive)

    Dan: not sure if these are elaborations, re the Seoul discussion we
    want clear developer focused details

    <jeffs> persistent connections with a device that is mobile may be
    problematical

    Bryan: support the reference to HTTP keep-alive, this is a common
    optimization that we recommend

    Dan: are you suggesting to reference this document?

    Francois: other than linking them to the existing BPs, its one more
    external source in the same direction
    ... don't recommend directly linking each BP to the external
    documents, just as a reference

    Dan: we will give Bryan an action to review Francois's report to
    extract as possible

ACTION-714 Response to MMA guidelines

    <jo> ACTION-714?

    <trackbot-ng> ACTION-714 -- Jo Rabin to draft review of MMA
    Advertising -- due 2008-03-20 -- OPEN

    <trackbot-ng>
    [19]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/714

      [19] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/714

    <jo> [20]jo's proposed response to MMA

      [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2008Mar/0047.html

    Jo: overall we think it is a good idea to have a global
    recommendation
    ... Web should be capitalized, ref MWBP, Mobile OK, Checker,
    reducing redirects for Ads

    <DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We agree the text of response to MMA
    guidelines as drafted by H. Rabin.

    <francois> +1

    <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We agree the text of response to MMA
    guidelines as drafted by H. Rabin under ACTION-714

    Bryan: why would we recommend against caching?

    Jo: Sean's idea, retrieving an ad, not strongly held, maybe we
    should be silent on this

    <jeffs> sorry, hamfisted today

    <francois> Bryan: I think it assumes one particular advertising
    paradigm, but use of caching for content is typically a practice we
    would recommend

    Bryan: caching is a viable option if statistics are not an issue

    <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We agree the text of response to MMA
    guidelines as drafted by Jo under ACTION-714 modulo changing text on
    caching to say "and ensuring that the correct cache options are
    used"

    <Kai> I agree very much with Bryan

    Bryan: agrees that cache use is context-specific

    +1

    <DKA> +1

    <Kai> +1

    <francois> +1

    <jeffs> +1

    Jo: looking for Dom to send the response

    <jo> RESOLUTION: We agree the text of response to MMA guidelines as
    drafted by Jo under ACTION-714 modulo changing text on caching to
    say "and ensuring that the correct cache options are used"

    ACTION-710

    <jo> ACTION-710?

    <trackbot-ng> ACTION-710 -- François Daoust to test the Effect of
    HEAD Requests on Various Servers -- due 2008-03-13 -- OPEN

    <trackbot-ng>
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/710

      [21] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/710

    Francois: will send a report to the list, it's still open

    <jo> [+1 to closing call at this stage]

    <francois> ACTION: daoust to prepare a report's form to fill to test
    Aaron static/dynamic example [recorded in
    [22]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-721 - Prepare a report's form to fill
    to test Aaron static/dynamic example [on François Daoust - due
    2008-03-27].

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Dan to raise an issue on extending BPs on ADC and
    seamless Korean inputs [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: daoust to prepare a report's form to fill to test
    Aaron static/dynamic example [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: Sonstein to take a look at the ref in 5.9.4 and
    summarize it [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


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