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[minutes] CT Call Tuesday 22 July 2008

From: Francois Daoust <fd@w3.org>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:18:28 +0200
Message-ID: <4885FA44.2000206@w3.org>
To: public-bpwg-ct <public-bpwg-ct@w3.org>

Hi,

The minutes of today's call are available at:
  http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-minutes.html

... and copied as text below.

Resolutions taken during the call:
- ref ISSUE-270 3.1.5.3 and 3.2.3 drop these editorial notes
- add a note in 3.3.6.2 that states that transformation is not possible 
without breaking end to end security
- Stick to our decision not to mention examples of Content-Types in 3.3.6
- Drop note on meta http-equiv no-transform and move to appendix
- Introduce some text stating that for the purposes of consistent 
pagination proxies MAY serve stale data but when doing do SHOULD notify 
the user that this is the case and SHOULD provide a simple means of 
retrieving a fresh copy - noting that from a process point of view it is 
a "feature at risk"

We shared the load and agreed to write some text by Thursday evening to 
fill the examples in Appendix B.

Schedule:
- Jo will circulate a new draft by tomorrow evening
- The main body of the Working Group will be told to have a look, 
because we plan to publish this as Last Call without much changes (save 
the examples)
- We'll review the examples, the changes, and take final resolutions on 
the items we could not address today next Tuesday.
- We'll see if we can call it a spec and resolve to publish a Last Call 
on 31 July 2008.

Francois


22 Jul 2008

    [2]Agenda

       [2] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Jul/0023.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Francois, rob, SeanP, jo, andrews

    Regrets
           Pontus, Aaron, Bryan

    Chair
           francois

    Scribe
           rob

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Appendix B Examples
          2. [6]CT and direct choice of user experience
          3. [7]HTTPS link re-writing
          4. [8]No mention of Content-Types in 3.3.6
          5. [9]meta http-equiv note in 3.2.2
          6. [10]Pagination and caching directives
          7. [11]Link element section structure (3.2.3.2)
      * [12]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

Appendix B Examples

    francois: Jo's right, we can't go to last call with no Appendix B
    ... 1st option is an "intermediate working draft" to give us 2 weeks
    to finish it

    <Zakim> jo, you wanted to wonder if folks can contribute to this
    within 1 week?

    francois: 2nd option is just finish it then go last call in 2 weeks

    jo: dependshow quick we can get the examples together
    ... or we could publish with one example and then expect comments
    back like "you need more examples!"
    ... whilst secretly working on those
    ... Would help if CTTF members each provide one example

    <jo> [would much prefer if we did what we meant and actually publish
    a final last call draft with all the examples we mean to include]

    francois: good idea to share load

    SeanP: yes, happy to do an example

    AndrewS: can I have B4?

    SeanP: ok, i'll take B2

    <francois> ACTION: andrew to write some text for CT Appendix B.4
    [recorded in
    [13]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-815 - Write some text for CT Appendix B.4
    [on Andrew Swainston - due 2008-07-29].

    <francois> ACTION: Sean to write some text for CT Appendix B.2
    [recorded in
    [14]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-816 - Write some text for CT Appendix B.2
    [on Sean Patterson - due 2008-07-29].

    <francois> ACTION: rob to write some text for CT Appendix B.5
    [recorded in
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - rob

    <francois> ACTION: robert to write some text for CT Appendix B.5
    [recorded in
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-817 - Write some text for CT Appendix B.5
    [on Robert Finean - due 2008-07-29].

    <francois> ACTION: daoust to write some text for CT Appendix B.3
    [recorded in
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-minutes.html#action05]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-818 - Write some text for CT Appendix B.3
    [on Fran├žois Daoust - due 2008-07-29].

    francois: so please examples before Friday

    jo: Thursday evening is best, then I can get another draft out on
    Friday

CT and direct choice of user experience

    francois: trying to rationalise the issue; from a technical
    viewpoint there is no inconsistency but might it confuse users?

    <francois> [18]ISSUE-270

      [18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Jul/0062.html

    jo: suggest we drop this
    ... there's not much we can say, so let's not try

    <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref ISSUE-270 3.1.5.3 and 3.2.3 drop these
    editorial notes

    +1

    <francois> +1

    <SeanP> +1

    RESOLUTION: ref ISSUE-270 3.1.5.3 and 3.2.3 drop these editorial
    notes

    <francois> Close ISSUE-270

HTTPS link re-writing

    <francois> ACTION-813?

    <trackbot> ACTION-813 -- Heiko Gerlach to draft some clearer wording
    of 3.3.6.2 on HTTPS link re-writing -- due 2008-07-22 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [19]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/813

      [19] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/813

    francois: Bryan had a lot of comments on this

    <francois> [20]discussion

      [20] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Jul/0011.html

    francois: but we need to avoid prescribing workings, we just need to
    prescribe outcomes that are possible

    <francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: amend text in 3.3.6.2 with some
    clarification that "to avoid decryption and transformation of the
    resources the links refer to" means that the CT-proxy must be
    bypassed in practice.

    <Zakim> jo, you wanted to disagree with the propsoed resolution and
    to suggest adding a note to stress that transformation is not
    possible without breaking end to end security

    <andrews> I agree with Jo

    jo: wants to avoid any doubt that "when content is transformed
    end-to-end security is broken"

    <SeanP> Agree, leave text as is

    <francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: add a note in 3.3.6.2 that states
    that transformation is not possible without breaking end to end
    security

    <andrews> +1

    <francois> +1

    RESOLUTION: add a note in 3.3.6.2 that states that transformation is
    not possible without breaking end to end security

    <jo> ACTION: jo to add a note per resolution on CT 3.3.6.3 on end to
    end security [recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-minutes.html#action06]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-819 - Add a note per resolution on CT
    3.3.6.3 on end to end security [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-07-29].

    <francois> Close ACTION-813

    <trackbot> ACTION-813 Draft some clearer wording of 3.3.6.2 on HTTPS
    link re-writing closed

No mention of Content-Types in 3.3.6

    francois: I'm fine with the decision from several months ago

    <francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Stick to our decision not to mention
    examples of Content-Types in 3.3.6

    jo: SeanP suggested Content-Type improvements that are in the
    forthcoming draft

    <francois> Close ACTION-812

    <trackbot> ACTION-812 Dig in the archives to check reason not to
    mention content types in the list of heuristics closed

    RESOLUTION: Stick to our decision not to mention examples of
    Content-Types in 3.3.6

meta http-equiv note in 3.2.2

    <francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: not to confuse readers, move the
    note on meta http-equiv from 3.2.2 to an appendix on legacy servers

    <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Drop note on meta http-equiv no-transform
    and move to appendix

    <francois> +1

    <andrews> +1

    <SeanP> +1

    RESOLUTION: Drop note on meta http-equiv no-transform and move to
    appendix

Pagination and caching directives

    <francois> ACTION-811?

    <trackbot> ACTION-811 -- Fran├žois Daoust to send a summary of the
    pagination note (3.1.4) to the mailing-list -- due 2008-07-22 --
    PENDINGREVIEW

    <trackbot>
    [22]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/811

      [22] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/811

    francois: don't think there's need for mention of this

    <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Add a note stating that when a
    transforming proxy is serving stale content as a result of
    pagination (or for other reasons) it SHOULD note that the data is
    stale

    francois: we can either drop the section or add requirements that
    CT-proxy must cache it

    <Zakim> rob, you wanted to say real users don't understand this
    stuff

    francois: but if i'm scrolling around a page on a browser I don't
    get informed when it turns stale

    <jo> _refresh_ for an up to date

    rob: i think we have to point out that the right thing to do is
    serve cached (and therefore likely stale)

    jo: still think we should point out they need to refresh to get the
    latest copy

    SeanP: maybe only do this if you reload the same section of the
    page?

    rob: likely to get this message a lot if cookies imply content is
    automatically stale

    jo: didn't mean that, only meant if Expires was set explicitly
    ... this is a deviation from accepted HTTP

    francois: if we're deviating from HTTP we should note that's the
    case

    <Zakim> rob, you wanted to say it's standard HTTP if the CT-proxy is
    a "virtual browser"

    SeanP: tending to agree with Jo if I come back an hour later and go
    to sub-page 2 we should note it's old

    <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Introduce some text stating that for the
    purposes of consistent pagination proxies MAY serve stale data but
    when doing do SHOULD notify the user that this is the case and
    SHOULD provide a simple means of retrieving a fresh copy

    <Zakim> jo, you wanted to say that we defined it as not being a
    "virtual browser"

    rob: it's standard HTTP if the CT-proxy and handset are grouped
    together as a single "virtual browser" entity

    jo: we haven't defined it like that though

    andrews: user-experience is that typically you find out content has
    expired when they hit back buttons, so maybe they will be used to
    such warnings
    ... I think of CT-proxy as an extension of the origin server, not of
    the browser

    SeanP: if page does expire quickly they will get that message a lot

    jo: we're not prescribing a message, just noting they may be
    provided with a message and means to refresh

    <jo> +1

    <francois> 0

    -1

    <andrews> 0 (???)

    <SeanP> 0, still thinking about it

    <Zakim> rob, you wanted to say MAY not SHOULD

    rob: prefer MAY not SHOULD

    jo: we could continue with SHOULD until implementations. If
    implementations show it's irritating, take it out

    <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Introduce some text stating that for the
    purposes of consistent pagination proxies MAY serve stale data but
    when doing do SHOULD notify the user that this is the case and
    SHOULD provide a simple means of retrieving a fresh copy - noting
    that from a process point of view it is a "feature at risk"

    francois: do we need to state this in the document?

    <francois> +1

    jo: no, just in the actions

    <jo> +1

    0

    <SeanP> Still 0, I like the "may" proposal

    andrews: I do see the logic of treating sub-pages as just scrolling
    ... so prefer MAY to SHOULD

    <Zakim> jo, you wanted to point out to andrews ...

    jo: but paging where there's clearly comms with a remote server
    doesn't feel like just scrolling up and down
    ... so believe we should give SHOULD a shot at implementation

    andrews: ok maybe for a last-call draft

    jo: to move from Candidate Rec to Rec must have implementations
    ... so we'd find out the experience at that stage

    <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Introduce some text stating that for the
    purposes of consistent pagination proxies MAY serve stale data but
    when doing do SHOULD notify the user that this is the case and
    SHOULD provide a simple means of retrieving a fresh copy - noting
    that from a process point of view it is a "feature at risk"

    <jo> +1

    <francois> +1

    0

    <andrews> 0

    <SeanP> 0

    RESOLUTION: Introduce some text stating that for the purposes of
    consistent pagination proxies MAY serve stale data but when doing do
    SHOULD notify the user that this is the case and SHOULD provide a
    simple means of retrieving a fresh copy - noting that from a process
    point of view it is a "feature at risk"

Link element section structure (3.2.3.2)

    jo: already addressed in new draft
    ... so I'll circulate new draft
    ... and then we can finish this call on-time

    francois: ok, we'll see if next week we're ready for last call

    jo: yes, so I'll note that in the draft
    ... So draft this afternoon, then everyone contribute Appendix B
    examples then final draft Friday

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: andrew to write some text for CT Appendix B.4
    [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: daoust to write some text for CT Appendix B.3
    [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-minutes.html#action05]
    [NEW] ACTION: jo to add a note per resolution on CT 3.3.6.3 on end
    to end security [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-minutes.html#action06]
    [NEW] ACTION: rob to write some text for CT Appendix B.5 [recorded
    in [26]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: robert to write some text for CT Appendix B.5
    [recorded in
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: Sean to write some text for CT Appendix B.2 [recorded
    in [28]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]

    [End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 22 July 2008 15:19:04 UTC

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