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RE: Clarification regarding live regions and hidden elements

From: Schnabel, Stefan <stefan.schnabel@sap.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 08:45:41 +0000
To: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>, 'Bryan Garaventa' <bryan.garaventa@levelaccess.com>, 'Steve Faulkner' <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
CC: 'Aaron Leventhal' <aleventhal@google.com>, 'Alexander Surkov' <surkov.alexander@gmail.com>, 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
Message-ID: <23cf9f6d963e4ffab548e4cdd379af50@sap.com>
Hidden live regions can be used to speak additional info for screen reader users. In my opinion, this is a very valid and valuable usage pattern.

My impression is that currently we get only satisfying cross-AT speech output if live regions are NOT hidden by any of the methods described below.
So if you don’t want do have the content be visible you have to apply css clipping or visibility:hidden. Right?


-          Stefan


From: Matt King [mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com]
Sent: Montag, 28. August 2017 08:34
To: 'Bryan Garaventa' <bryan.garaventa@levelaccess.com>; 'Steve Faulkner' <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Cc: 'Aaron Leventhal' <aleventhal@google.com>; 'Alexander Surkov' <surkov.alexander@gmail.com>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Clarification regarding live regions and hidden elements

Agree. I remember this being discussed at length at an f2f a few years ago. I think it was at Mozilla. It seemed there was consensus regarding intent but then it was not realized in implementations. I don’t know what we have in the test suite for this.


From: Bryan Garaventa [mailto:bryan.garaventa@levelaccess.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 12:29 AM
To: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com<mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com>>; Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com<mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com>>
Cc: Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com<mailto:aleventhal@google.com>>; Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com<mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com>>; ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org<mailto:public-aria@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: Clarification regarding live regions and hidden elements

Yes please.


Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
Level Access, Inc.
Bryan.Garaventa@LevelAccess.com<mailto:Bryan.Garaventa@LevelAccess.com>
415.624.2709 (o)
www.LevelAccess.com<http://www.LevelAccess.com>

From: Steve Faulkner [mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 10:37 PM
To: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com<mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com>>
Cc: Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com<mailto:aleventhal@google.com>>; Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com<mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com>>; Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@levelaccess.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@levelaccess.com>>; ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org<mailto:public-aria@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: Clarification regarding live regions and hidden elements

There is the disputed case of display:none combined with aria-hidden=”false” which creates an accessible object in some browsers but not others.

Suggest we need to get consensus on this issue and interop among browsers so it does not cause issues.

--

Regards

SteveF
Current Standards Work @W3C<http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/>

On 24 August 2017 at 01:21, Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com<mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com>> wrote:
And, slightly off topic, There is the disputed case of display:none combined with aria-hidden=”false” which creates an accessible object in some browsers but not others. So, this combination will yield inconsistent results when used with aria-live.

From: Aaron Leventhal [mailto:aleventhal@google.com<mailto:aleventhal@google.com>]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:49 AM
To: Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com<mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com>>
Cc: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@levelaccess.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@levelaccess.com>>; Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com<mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com>>; ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org<mailto:public-aria@w3.org>>

Subject: Re: Clarification regarding live regions and hidden elements

Exception would be if there is a reason it must be exposed, for example it is focusable/focused even though marked as aria-hidden.

Aaron

On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 2:40 PM Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com<mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com>> wrote:
+1. The browsers are not expected to expose the hidden content afaik.

On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com<mailto:aleventhal@google.com>> wrote:
I'm in agreement -- my understanding was that the only time hidden content is exposed is when pointed to by aria-labelledby/describedby.

You could, however, style a live region offscreen or behind something and it should be spoken.

Aaron

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 1:04 PM Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@levelaccess.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@levelaccess.com>> wrote:
Thanks, that’s what I thought as well.

I can’t find anything in the spec that says this however, which makes it difficult for me to enter bugs against it.


Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
Level Access, Inc.
Bryan.Garaventa@LevelAccess.com<mailto:Bryan.Garaventa@LevelAccess.com>
415.624.2709<tel:(415)%20624-2709> (o)
www.LevelAccess.com<http://www.LevelAccess.com>

From: Steve Faulkner [mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com<mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com>]
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 12:57 AM
To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@levelaccess.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@levelaccess.com>>
Cc: ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org<mailto:public-aria@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: Clarification regarding live regions and hidden elements

If an element is meant to be explicitly hidden, should it remain an active live region regardless?

I don't believe it should, but this does not mean that its contents cannot be referenced via aria-labelledby/describedby when hidden.

--

Regards

SteveF
Current Standards Work @W3C<http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/>

On 19 August 2017 at 00:25, Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@levelaccess.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@levelaccess.com>> wrote:
Hi,
Today I was asked whether live regions are allowed on hidden elements, and I thought this was a simple no, but in looking at the spec and testing, it appears people's understanding of this is all over the map.

E.G An element like a div that includes  CSS display:none or visibility:hidden, or the HTML5 hidden attribute, or even aria-hidden="true".

If an element is meant to be explicitly hidden, should it remain an active live region regardless?

Thanks,
Bryan


Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
Level Access, Inc.
Bryan.Garaventa@LevelAccess.com<mailto:Bryan.Garaventa@LevelAccess.com>
415.624.2709<tel:(415)%20624-2709> (o)
www.LevelAccess.com<http://www.LevelAccess.com>



Received on Monday, 28 August 2017 08:46:06 UTC

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