- From: Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
- Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 15:21:06 -0400
- To: Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>, richschwer@gmail.com
- Cc: clown@alum.mit.edu, stefan.schnabel@sap.com, faulkner.steve@gmail.com, Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org, public-aria@w3.org
Hi Rich. Regarding your question, what I stated here still stands: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2016-August/002095.html Will authors expect that? Will users expect it? Will NVDA provide that? I don't know the answers to those questions. But if the answers turn out to be "yes," then I would want to support it in Orca. In which case I need the reverse relationship. If the answers are "no," then I see no need to do so in Orca either. --joanie On 08/29/2016 02:03 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote: > Jamie, Alex, > > There is far too much resistance to concatenating the description with > the error message. It will never carry with the working group. I am > sorry. Right now we are holding up ARIA in HTML in ARIA. > > Can we agree: > > 1. For the Firefox mapping of the form element, and ARIA 1.1 form role, > IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK is exposed with xml-roles="form" > 2. /IA2_ROLE_FORM/ will not be deprecated for backward compatibility > 3. We expose IA2_RELATION_DETAILS and IA2_RELATIONSHIP_ERROR_MESSAGE - > It that you both agreed on separate relationships and these were the > names Alex suggested. > > Beyond that I need an answer on the reverse relationship that Joanie > requested. It you can't agree I will leave them out of the IA2 spec. I > do believe that Joanie might implement the reverse relationship for her > platform but I have not asked. Joanie? > > Alex, would you please send me an updated IDL for IA2? > > Regards, > Rich > > > Rich Schwerdtfeger > > > > ----- Original message ----- > From: Rich Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com> > Sent by: accessibility-ia2-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org > To: Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com> > Cc: Joseph Scheuhammer <clown@alum.mit.edu>, Stefan Schnabel > <stefan.schnabel@sap.com>, Steven Faulkner > <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, IA2 List > <Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org>, ARIA Working Group > <public-aria@w3.org> > Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 Role Landmark > Date: Sun, Aug 28, 2016 7:20 AM > > I would also argue that, today, navigating a web page should be by > regional landmarks first. They create a table of contents for the > page and we advise all IBM developers to ensure all content is > contained within a landmark. This way content is not orphaned. To > that end a form should be treated as a landmark and should appear in > the table of contents used for navigation by ATVs. > > We are way beyond one off landmarks (just a form) and starting with > heading navigation today. > > Rich > Rich Schwerdtfeger > > > > >> On Aug 25, 2016, at 10:51 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger >> <richschwer@gmail.com <mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Well it is used by the most pervasive apps on the planet using IA2 >> already. Chrome, FF, and eclipse-based apps. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Aug 25, 2016, at 10:45 AM, Alexander Surkov >> <surkov.alexander@gmail.com <mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com>> >> wrote: >> >>> I definitely agree that IA2 needs a flexible mechanism to expose >>> roles, I'm just not sure it should be xml-roles object attribute. >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger >>> <richschwer@gmail.com <mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Alex, those object attributes should have been included in >>> IA2 a long time ago. I in no way see these as a hack. Eclipse >>> uses them too. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 9:49 AM, Alexander Surkov >>> <surkov.alexander@gmail.com >>> <mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>>> This is true, however xml-roles is not standard attribute in >>>> IA2, it's rather a browser specific hack to expose the >>>> semantics, that otherwise was missed. So if the API provides >>>> a way to expose an element semantics more fully, then I'd >>>> say it's the way to go. >>>> >>>> Having said that, I'm also concerned about >>>> backward-compatibility issue. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Joanmarie Diggs >>>> <jdiggs@igalia.com <mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sorry for being spammy, but with respect to the loss of >>>> semantics: The >>>> type of landmark is still being exposed via object >>>> attribute. So I'll >>>> still know if an ATK_ROLE_LANDMARK is a form, or >>>> navigation, or .... >>>> >>>> On 08/25/2016 10:24 AM, Joanmarie Diggs wrote: >>>> > Hi Alex, all. >>>> > >>>> > I don't recall saying "kill the form role" in ATK. We >>>> have no plans to >>>> > deprecate ATK_ROLE_FORM. Instead, I believe I said >>>> something along the >>>> > lines of the following: >>>> > >>>> > Q: Should HTML's form element be treated like a >>>> landmark for the >>>> > purposes of navigation? >>>> > >>>> > If Yes: Map it to ATK_ROLE_LANDMARK >>>> > If No: Continue mapping it to ATK_ROLE_FORM >>>> > >>>> > --joanie >>>> > >>>> > On 08/25/2016 10:08 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote: >>>> >> I don't think Jamie argues that FORM is not a >>>> landmark. The point is >>>> >> that FORM is a form and also a landmark. IA2 provides >>>> a special FORM >>>> >> role, which is used both for ARIA and HTML currently, >>>> and adopted by >>>> >> browsers and screen readers. >>>> >> >>>> >> If we use weaker role for forms, then we loose >>>> semantics as Jamie >>>> >> pointed out, and we make a not backward compatible >>>> change. All JAWS and >>>> >> other commercial screen reader users will have to buy >>>> a new screen >>>> >> reader version. >>>> >> >>>> >> ATK gained this role, because it doesn't have a >>>> mechanism to fetch all >>>> >> landmarks on a page other than query it by role. And >>>> thus they are ok to >>>> >> sacrifice ATK form role for performance reasons I >>>> think. Note, ATK world >>>> >> doesn't have so acute problem of backward >>>> compatibility as IA2 has, so >>>> >> they have a larger room for changes. IA2 landmark >>>> role is a ATK toll to >>>> >> keep IA2 compatible with, this is a primary reason, >>>> if I do understand >>>> >> that right. However I'm not confident too that we >>>> should take ATK path >>>> >> and kill a form role too. >>>> >> >>>> >> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 3:34 AM, Schnabel, Stefan >>>> >> <stefan.schnabel@sap.com >>>> <mailto:stefan.schnabel@sap.com> >>>> <mailto:stefan.schnabel@sap.com >>>> <mailto:stefan.schnabel@sap.com>>> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> Hi James,____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> currently Jaws treats forms like regions as >>>> landmarks, i.e. showing >>>> >> them in its landmarks dialog, too. They do this >>>> for reason, page >>>> >> structure is very clearly revealed by this. I >>>> consider this as a >>>> >> strong feature and do not like this changed.____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> The logic behind that is the pragmatic thinking >>>> that forms are >>>> >> landmark-like, too. And a “navigation” landmark >>>> can contain fairly >>>> >> complex content, too, not just a list of links.____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> Best Regards____ >>>> >> >>>> >> Stefan____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> *From:*James Teh [mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org >>>> <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org> >>>> >> <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org >>>> <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>>] >>>> >> *Sent:* Donnerstag, 25. August 2016 00:33 >>>> >> *To:* Rich Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:richschwer@gmail.com> >>>> >> <mailto:richschwer@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>>> >>>> >> *Cc:* Alexander Surkov >>>> <surkov.alexander@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com> >>>> >> <mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com>>>; Joseph Scheuhammer >>>> >> <clown@alum.mit.edu <mailto:clown@alum.mit.edu> >>>> <mailto:clown@alum.mit.edu >>>> <mailto:clown@alum.mit.edu>>>; Joanmarie Diggs >>>> >> <jdiggs@igalia.com <mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com> >>>> <mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com <mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com>>>; >>>> IA2 List >>>> >> <Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org >>>> <mailto:Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org> >>>> >> >>>> <mailto:Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org >>>> <mailto:Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org>>>; >>>> ARIA Working >>>> >> Group <public-aria@w3.org >>>> <mailto:public-aria@w3.org> <mailto:public-aria@w3.org >>>> <mailto:public-aria@w3.org>>>; Steven >>>> >> Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com> >>>> <mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com>>> >>>> >> *Subject:* Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 Role >>>> Landmark____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> Hi Rich,____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> I understand the reason for the use of the >>>> landmark role for >>>> >> role="form". However, I disagree with the HTML >>>> form element being >>>> >> mapped to the landmark role because semantics are >>>> lost. The fact >>>> >> that something is a form has more semantic value >>>> than just being a >>>> >> landmark. Still, if the spec already requires >>>> this, I guess we have >>>> >> little choice but to comply at this stage.____ >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Jamie____ >>>> >> >>>> >> On 25/08/2016 3:08 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger wrote:____ >>>> >> >>>> >> Jamie, ____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> The point is we want ALL the landmarks to be >>>> treated the same >>>> >> way for ATVs. So, first we determine that it >>>> is a landmark. Then >>>> >> we go to xml-roles to determine the type of >>>> landmark. ____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> Otherwise, we need a special case for a form. >>>> That is what we >>>> >> are trying to avoid. For these reasons >>>> ATK/ATSPI created a >>>> >> landmark role first. ____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> The HTML the form element now uses the ARIA >>>> mappings for the >>>> >> form role. See "Use WAI-ARIA mapping” under >>>> the form element. >>>> >> This is for all platforms.____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html >>>> <https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html> >>>> >> >>>> <https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html >>>> <https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html>>____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> We do understand that non-browser >>>> applications may still use the >>>> >> older Form role mapping as would older >>>> browser versions. It is >>>> >> for these reasons that our definition of >>>> deprecation is that it >>>> >> has not gone a way but rather it is going to >>>> this new preferred >>>> >> mapping. ____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> Best,____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> Rich____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> Rich Schwerdtfeger____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> On Aug 23, 2016, at 7:35 PM, James Teh >>>> <jamie@nvaccess.org <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org> >>>> >> <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org >>>> <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>>> wrote:____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> If you believe that role="form" has no >>>> semantic value other >>>> >> than being a landmark, then let's go >>>> ahead and map it to >>>> >> IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK. On the other hand, the >>>> HTML form tag >>>> >> *does* have semantic value other than >>>> being a landmark, so >>>> >> I'd argue it should be IA2_ROLE_FORM.____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> On 24/08/2016 5:22 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger >>>> wrote:____ >>>> >> >>>> >> We are not asking that IA2_ROLE_FORM >>>> be deprecated >>>> >> altogether. Even with ARIA we have >>>> some attributes that >>>> >> re deprecated but that is meant so >>>> that there will be a >>>> >> replacement solution. An example is >>>> the drag and drop >>>> >> aria properties. For ARIA browser >>>> conformance testing to >>>> >> exit Candidate Recommendation we will >>>> be testing for >>>> >> IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK on form roles. ____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> Rich Schwerdtfeger____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> On Aug 18, 2016, at 9:56 PM, >>>> James Teh >>>> >> <jamie@nvaccess.org >>>> <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org> <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org >>>> <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>>> >>>> >> wrote:____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> On 11/08/2016 2:58 AM, Alexander >>>> Surkov wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> ____ >>>> >> >>>> >> 1) adding IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK >>>> and____ >>>> >> >>>> >> Yes. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> ____ >>>> >> >>>> >> 2) deprecating IA2_ROLE_FORM?____ >>>> >> >>>> >> I'd argue that there is more >>>> semantic value in a >>>> >> "form" than just the fact that it >>>> is a landmark. >>>> >> This probably doesn't apply to >>>> ARIA (at least for >>>> >> now), since role="form" is >>>> defined as only a >>>> >> landmark. However, I'd argue it >>>> does apply to the >>>> >> HTML form tag. So, I'm fine t not >>>> use IA2_ROLE_FORM >>>> >> for ARIA role="form", but I'm >>>> dubious about >>>> >> deprecating it altogether, >>>> including for the HTML >>>> >> form tag. >>>> >> Jamie >>>> >> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> James Teh >>>> >> Executive Director, NV Access Limited >>>> >> Ph +61 7 3149 3306 >>>> <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306> <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306> >>>> >> www.nvaccess.org >>>> <http://www.nvaccess.org/> <http://www.nvaccess.org/> >>>> >> Facebook: >>>> http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess >>>> <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess> >>>> >> <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess >>>> <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>> >>>> >> Twitter: @NVAccess >>>> >> SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org >>>> <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org> <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org >>>> <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>>____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> ____ >>>> >> >>>> >> -- ____ >>>> >> >>>> >> James Teh____ >>>> >> >>>> >> Executive Director, NV Access Limited____ >>>> >> >>>> >> Ph +61 7 3149 3306 >>>> <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306> >>>> <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>____ >>>> >> >>>> >> www.nvaccess.org >>>> <http://www.nvaccess.org/> <http://www.nvaccess.org/>____ >>>> >> >>>> >> Facebook: >>>> http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess >>>> <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess> >>>> >> <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess >>>> <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>>____ >>>> >> >>>> >> Twitter: @NVAccess____ >>>> >> >>>> >> SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org >>>> <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org> <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org >>>> <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>>____ >>>> >> >>>> >> __ __ >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> ____ >>>> >> >>>> >> -- ____ >>>> >> >>>> >> James Teh____ >>>> >> >>>> >> Executive Director, NV Access Limited____ >>>> >> >>>> >> Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306> >>>> <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>____ >>>> >> >>>> >> www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/> >>>> <http://www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>>____ >>>> >> >>>> >> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess >>>> <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess> >>>> <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess >>>> <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>>____ >>>> >> >>>> >> Twitter: @NVAccess____ >>>> >> >>>> >> SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org >>>> <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org> <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org >>>> <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>>____ >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > Accessibility-ia2 mailing list >>>> > Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org >>>> <mailto:Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org> >>>> > >>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2 >>>> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2> >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ > Accessibility-ia2 mailing list > Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Accessibility-ia2 mailing list > Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2 >
Received on Monday, 29 August 2016 19:21:47 UTC