W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > ietf-discuss@w3.org > December 2001

Re: Requirements for reliable message delivery

From: John Ibbotson <john_ibbotson@uk.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:19:47 +0000
To: discuss@apps.ietf.org
Message-ID: <OF92D04574.6EE6CC94-ON80256B18.002DB91F@portsmouth.uk.ibm.com>
                                                                                                              
                    John Ibbotson                                                                             
                                         To:     Graham Klyne <GK@ninebynine.org>                             
                    12/04/2001           cc:                                                                  
                    08:17 AM             From:   John Ibbotson/UK/IBM@IBMGB                                   
                                         Subject:     Re: Requirements for reliable message delivery(Document 
                                         link: John Ibbotson)                                                 
                                                                                                              
                                                                                                              
                                                                                                              
                                                                                                              
                                                                                                              
                                                                                                              



Graham,
Some comments inline:
John

XML Technology and Messaging,
IBM UK Ltd, Hursley Park,
Winchester, SO21 2JN

Tel: (work) +44 (0)1962 815188        (home) +44 (0)1722 781271
Fax: +44 (0)1962 816898
Notes Id: John Ibbotson/UK/IBM
email: john_ibbotson@uk.ibm.com



                                                                                                              
                    Graham Klyne                                                                              
                    <GK@ninebynine       To:     John Ibbotson/UK/IBM@IBMGB                                   
                    .org>                cc:     Brian E Carpenter <brian@hursley.ibm.com>, Discuss Apps      
                                          <discuss@apps.ietf.org>, Richard P King/Watson/IBM@IBMUS            
                    11/26/2001           Subject:     Re: Requirements for reliable message delivery          
                    11:15 AM                                                                                  
                                                                                                              
                                                                                                              




John,

Thanks for your clarifications, though I must confess I am still struggling
to understand the rationale for what you seem to be describing:

(1) Complexity of distributed commit:  it seems to me that the simplest
option would be if the "reliable message transfer" were just a single
end-to-end hop, without the issues of cascading.  This suggests that
intermediate hops may be best effort if the message-passing endpoint has
the recovery logic.

<JBI> Sure, If life was so simple :-) Most B2B types of transfer assume an
application generating a message <JBI> sits within some firewall and is
communicating with another application within some other business <JBI>
<JBI> firewall. That immediately gives three hops App1 -> gateway1 ->
gateway2 -> App2 (I'm assuming the App <JBI> talks to some messaging
middleware maybe via JMS). The internal messaging middleware in each
business <JBI> infrastructure may be different so that adds the complexity
of different transports to the equation. If <JBI> you now consider a
transaction from App1 to App2, then resources have to be locked over the
<JBI> <JBI> <JBI> request/response path between App1 and App2 to ensure
correct commit/rollback. This is not what we want. <JBI> The Business
hosting App2 does not want its resources locked by a supplier or purchaser
running App1. <JBI> That's why breaking the transaction down to smaller
units of work at the messaging level simplifies <JBI> matters. Now the
business hosting App2 only has to consider transactions scoped between its
gateway and <JBI> applications - much more manageable.

(2) Achieving reliability:  it is my view that reliability is mostly
achieved by strong implementation and operational deployment, not protocol
design.  But however good a system is, there is still a possibility of
failure.  I think the challenge for protocol design is to make the
behaviour deterministic, in the sense that the sender of a message has a
reliable indication of the eventual outcome of message transfer (or, in a
transactional context, I suppose it would be better to say that the two
endpoints have a reliable way to synchronize their record of state).

<JBI> No matter how robust the implementation and deployment is, there will
still be failures. A reliable <JBI> protocol design will provide
deterministic behaviour as seen by an application that uses the reliable
<JBI> delivery service defined by the protocol.

I see a problem with this scenario, which I must assume you've considered,
so I hope it will flush out any misunderstandings:

      +------+     +------------+     +--------+
      |Sender|-->--|Intermediary|-->--|Receiver|
      +------+     +------------+     +--------+

   (a) First hop:  sender hands off to intermediate.
       On completion, assumes that delivery is (or will be) done.
<JBI> No - it is known that delivery is done since the protocol tells him
that it has been done. Suppose
<JBI> message M1 is to be sent. There is a stored copy of M1 at the sender.
The sender sends M1 to the
<JBI> Intermediary which stores it persistently. Persistently means that
the copy will survive a recycling of <JBI> the intermediary so the message
has to be stored on disk (database, filesystem etc). The intermediary <JBI>
then responds to the Sender telling it that M1 has been stored. The Sender
can then delete its local <JBI> copy of M1. In the case of the intermediary
failing before M1 is stored, the sender will not be told <JBI> that the
intermediary copy of M1 is stored. Therefore the transaction of sending M1
is in doubt. It can <JBI> then resynchronise with the intermediary and
resend M1.

   (b) Intermediary falls over.  Message (or record of state) held at
intermediary is lost.
<JBI> The Intermediary MUST make a local copy of the message. If it then
falls over, it can recover. If it <JBI> falls over before storing it, there
is a local copy still at the sender and the endpoints can still <JBI>
recover and resend the message.
   (c) Sender and Receiver are now out of sync, with no outstanding
unresolved state
<JBI> First hop actions are repeated between the intermediary and reveiver
for reliable delivery.

(3) You talk about transferring state information with the message;  it
seems to me that such state information can only ever be partial with
respect to whatever function it is that the endpoint applications are
trying to perform.  So the need for some kind of end-to-end synchronization
doesn't go away.
<JBI> Hopefully, what I've described above shows how the end-to-end
synchronisation can be implemented using
<JBI> cascaded single hops. There are still end-to-end issues such as
authentication, non-repudiation etc that <JBI> are the responsibility of
the business process using the  reliable delivery. I believe those kinds of
<JBI> issues are strictly the responsibility of the business applications
and not the messaging layer.
#g
--


At 03:27 PM 11/22/01 +0000, John Ibbotson wrote:
> >From our experience with reliable transactional messaging, we believe
that
>a single hop approach is the starting point. Certainly end-to-end
>reliability is required at an application level, but we believe this
should
>be built on a single-hop model with multiple hops being considered as
>cascaded single hops. An important consideration here is transactionality.
>The complexity of distributed 2 phase commit can be simplified by adopting
>the single hop model. A unidirectional message over a single hop can be
>managed as a single unit of work with commit/rollback being applied when a
>message is reliably delivered to the endpoint. Therefore in an
asynchronous
>request/response single hop model, there are three units of work - the
>request, the processing and the response. This extends to the multi hop
>case so for N hops, there are 2N +1 units of work. Issues such as
>end-to-end security, authentication, non-repudiation etc can then be
>implemented at the application layer on top of the messaging.
>
>A reliable messaging protocol requires the definition of "state machines"
>at the endpoints of the single hop together with state information
>transferred as part of the message between the endpoints. These may be
>abstracted to a set of operations that we have briefly described in the
>requirements document. Separation of the state machines from the state
>information means that alternative bindings of the state information to
>different transports can be implemented.
[...]


------------
Graham Klyne
GK@NineByNine.org
Received on Tuesday, 4 December 2001 10:52:22 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Thursday, 23 March 2006 20:11:29 GMT