[![W3C][1]][2] # Device APIs Working Group Teleconference ## 10 Jul 2012 [Agenda][3] See also: [IRC log][4] ## Attendees Present Cathy_Chan, Dave_Raggett, Diana_Cheng, Frederick_Hirsch, Giri_Mandyam, Hiroyuki_Aizu, James_Hawkins, Jean_Michel_Rouger, Josh_Soref, Jun_Fujisawa, Jungkee_Song, Kensaku_Komatsu, Laszlo_Gombos, Milan_Patel, Naoyuki_Sato, Niklas_Widell, Paul_Kinlan, Richard_Tibbet, Robin_Berjon, Soonbo_Han, Steve_VanDeBogart_(vandebo), Wonsuk_Lee, Youenn_Fablet, jerome_giraud Regrets Chair Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch Scribe Josh_Soref ## Contents * [Topics][5] 1. [Welcome][6] 2. [Phone Introductions][7] 3. [Agenda review][8] 4. [Minutes Approval][9] 5. [HTML Media Capture][10] 6. [Battery][11] 7. [Vibration][12] 8. [Proximity][13] 9. [WebIntents][14] 10. [Agenda Additions][15] 11. [WebIntents Namespacing][16] 12. [Dinner Tonight][17] 13. [Web Activities API][18] 14. [Webintents Issues wiki][19] 15. [darobin's Contacts Intent][20] 16. [History][21] 17. [History for Sys Apps and NFC][22] 18. [NFC][23] 19. [Interop and Testing][24] * [Summary of Action Items][25] * * * Date: 10 July 2012 Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Face-Face 10-12 July 2012, Burlington MA Scribe: Josh_Soref ### Welcome fjh: restrooms are outside ... There's a cafeteria down the hall ... We should use it jhawkins: James Hawkins ... At Google ... I'm interested in WebIntents dsr: Dave Raggett ... W3C ... I'm measured on recommendations per minute jgiraud: Jerome Giraud ... Orange ... Global interest apis Milan: Milan Patel ... Huawei ... Standards, W3C is in my area ... Within DAP, WebIntents are my main interest Cathy: Cathy Chan, Nokia Lgombos: Laszlo Gombos ... Nokia richt: Richard Tibbett ... Opera ... I lead extensions and device apis ... Interested in WebIntents ... And sensors Paul_Kinlan is joining now, just need to find a room Josh_Soref: Josh Soref ... interested in web intents. fjh: Frederick Hirsch, Nokia, co-chairing this WG, interested in everything in this group darobin: Robin Berjon ... co-chairing with Frederick and interested in everything. youenn: Youenn Fablet, Canon, interested in Web Intents and media capture API kensaku: Kensaku Komatsu ... interested in Web Intents naoyuki: Naoyuki Sato, Sony ... interested in combination of web with home networks aizu: Hiroyuki Aizu ... interest is in Web Intents / integration of home network / cloud services. ... interested in 2 things: inter-device communication based on e.g. Web Intents. Printing from camera or displaying camera content on TV. ... second interest: an advanced media capture API. A Camera API. ... Canon hope to officially be a member of DAP shortly. Currently attending as an observer. jun: Jun Fujisawa, Canon dcheng3: Diana Cheng, Vodafone ... interested in Web Intents, Network Information API, Sensors. shan: Soonbo Han, LG Electronics, main interest is Web Intents Wonsuk: Wonsuk Lee, Samsung ... participate in Tizen group. Samsung interested in all of the Device APIs. ... Contact and Calendar APIs are particularly important to us. ... Tizen wants to bring more advanced APIs to the web for richer experiences. ... Working on Tizen as well. Working on Gallery API based on Web Intents. Interested in additional Web Intents-based APIs. Jungkee: Jungkee Song ### Phone Introductions nwidell: Niklas Widell ... interest in Web Intents, Sensor APIs and Capture parts. Paul_Kinlan: Paul Kinlan, Google. ... primarily interested in Web Intents. gmandyam: Giri Mandyam, Qualcomm Introductions done. "We have particular interest in the work of the Media Capture Task Force, and will also be very interested in the progress of other specifications such as the Network Info API and Web Intents." ### Agenda review [fjh runs through the proposed meeting agenda] fjh: Any suggestions on the agenda just ping me offline. Agenda approved. fjh: Welcome to all new members of the working group. **ACTION:** dsr to check out why chairs got an email to announce Sony joining group but they're not listed in DBWG [recorded in [http://www.w3.org/2012/07/10-dap-minutes.html#action01][26]] Created ACTION-548 - Check out why chairs got an email to announce Sony joining group but they're not listed in DBWG [on Dave Raggett - due 2012-07-17]. ### Minutes Approval Approve minutes from 27 June [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device- apis/2012Jun/att-0104/minutes-2012-06-27.html][27] proposed RESOLUTION: Minutes from 27 June 2012 are approved **RESOLUTION: Minutes from 27 June 2012 are approved** ### HTML Media Capture fjh: we have a draft ... i did a CfC ... no one complained ... i believe Anssi was supportive ... we have a 4 week LC ... there's a 3 week minimum CfC for Last Call: [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device- apis/2012Jul/0005.html][28] proposed RESOLUTION: publish HTML Media Capture as Last Call on 12 July 2012 with four week Last Call period ending 9 August 2012. richt: how are we on implementation? darobin: we have roughly 2 not quite complete ... we might go to CR w/ things AT-RISK ... the HTML INPUT Element extension ... we don't have fully interoperable implementations ... there's a lot of interest in implementing this ... i get the sense from browser implementers that they don't care about the syntax ... everyone says we don't care what it looks ... like ... there's pressure from CoreMob ... dear-dap please ship it richt: theory should be document current practice dsr: plh is keen for us as we go to LC ... to get feedback from the HTML WG darobin: the only feedback from the HTML WG would be "this should be in our spec" [I note that that was a jocular comment] [ Scribe notes that the HTML WG expressed some interest in California in not owning everything ] **RESOLUTION: publish HTML Media Capture as Last Call on 12 July 2012 with four week Last Call period ending 9 August 2012.** ### Battery [http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/camera/?specStatus=LC;publishDate=2012-0 7-12;lcEnd=2012-08-09;previousPublishDate=2012-05-29;previousMaturity=WD][29] Battery in CR [http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw- file/tip/battery/CR.html][30] ; open actions to produce test cases; ACTION-522, ACTION-523 able to exit CR after 1 July. fjh: Battery is in CR ACTION-522? ACTION-522 -- Robin Berjon to write tests for Battery -- due 2012-03-28 -- OPEN [http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/522][31] ACTION=523? darobin: Battery is in CR ... i haven't finished updating the testsuite yet ... i'm still updating it ... i hoped to finish by this meeting ... those actions are still open ... i'm making progress ... i hope to exit CR by end of summer ... we have implementations ... a good spec ... half of a test suite ... it all looks good to me fjh: Anssi will be back darobin: yes, that will help as well plan is to exit CR at end of summer assuming all goes well ### Vibration Vibration in CR [http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-vibration-20120508/][32] ; open actions to produce test cases; ACTION-523 able to exit CR after 1 July fjh: i think this is similar to Battery darobin: i have an action on this from the Test Infrastructure Group fjh: not CoreMob ### Proximity Proximity - latest editors draft , [http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw- file/tip/proximity/Overview.html][33] fjh: Paul_Kinlan ... i believe you were interested in talking about it Josh_Soref: I doubt it was Paul_Kinlan It wasn't me proposed ACTION fjh to prepare CfC to publish FPWD of Proximity API specification darobin: i think it was dougt fjh: I'll send dougt an email ... is there any objection to publishing a FPWD? ... a FPWD is an indication of progress ... it isn't a commitment to the document as is ... if there are minor questions/comments ... we can either incorporate them ... or into the next draft PROPOSED RESOLUTION: WG agrees to publish a FPWD of Proximity API specification fjh: we don't need a short name, do we? darobin: i think we do dsr: yes, you do fjh: we have Proximity in our draft ... i think that's fine **RESOLUTION: Short name for Proximity API will be "Proximity"** fjh: that's the thing people always forget, is the short name **RESOLUTION: WG agrees to publish a FPWD of Proximity API specification with short name "Proximity"** **ACTION:** rberjon to prepare CfC to publish FPWD of Proximity API [recorded in [http://www.w3.org/2012/07/10-dap-minutes.html#action02][34]] Created ACTION-549 - Prepare CfC to publish FPWD of Proximity API [on Robin Berjon - due 2012-07-17]. ### WebIntents fjh: we have a FPWD ... we have an ED w/ updates ... we have some issues in the Wiki ... jhawkins, you have some updates? jhawkins: we're really excited about FPWD ... congratulations everyone for helping put that together ... the biggest part was the last F2F in Shenzhen ... wrt the Chrome implementation, we've been working w/ UX to address the bad UI we have ... we're hashing out what the UI will look like ... right now, the feedback we've got from developers ... was that they like the API, but they can't ship if the UI is bad darobin: do you know when this will be present? jhawkins: I think this could appear in Chrome 22 ... we deprioritize working w/ clients of the API ... we have a list of changes we want ... some dating back to the F2F ... they're nice to haves ... perhaps something we could be productive on here ... (disposition) ... we did a presentation two weeks ago @Google.IO ... it was really exciting ... of all the presentations I attended, it had the longest Q/A session ... we had hallway presentations about it ... we did a Code Lab with 40 developers ... doing a hands on tutorial for writing web intents ... we found a ton of bugs this way ... it was good to get that feedback [https://developers.google.com/events/io/sessions/gooio2012/216/][35] jhawkins: we need to find a way for people to be hands on ... writing demo code ... to tease out some of these bugs ... Related... ... mounir posted the WebActivities counter-proposal ... we could go over them today? ... I think there are some Issues? fjh: we could go over Explicit Intents ... i think it's sparse in the spec jhawkins: that's a good point ... the spec has gotten really dense ... after reading it so many times, it's hard to find bugs ... that's a plea for editing help w/ the spec fjh: are there issues we haven't talked through/thought about? ... i think there are more implications jhawkins: certainly security/privacy fjh: my concern with Explicit intents is that it defeats the paradigm jhawkins: the way we rationalize it ... in our UI, the user can choose in the picker ... it's like a client default ... but the user can go back and pick another service fjh: so if you're doing photos, and you do an editor thing ... you'd land in the editor, and you could go back? jhawkins: say inline disposition ... you'd have a link to go back ... [in the UA] ... also for the window disposition ... if you know the popup blocker alert ... in chrome, it's a box on the top right ... we'd have a bar like that which would let the user to pick other things fjh: the client would set the explicit intent ... all clients could do this normally ... and users could do this path ... there's a privacy risk where data is sent on that fast path ... and the receiving side sees it ... without the user being able to prevent that jhawkins: that's a concern fjh: it seems people would maybe choose to do that more often Paul_Kinlan: if you're building an application with an image editor ... with crop, red-eye removal ... you might build each component using intents ... you make those small components available for external clients ... but you use it for your main app fjh: sort of like a manifest for an application ... sort of a different UC dsr: if it's Same-Origin, then that's less of an issue fjh: i forgot if that section talks about origin ... for explicit intents jhawkins: this leaves out the possibility of a webintents agent ... you can do that w/ explicit intents ... it could be a picker itself ... we'd lose it if we leave out explicit ... i understand we could be sending out data w/o knowing where it's going fjh: it seems like we have a great model where we have a user mediated stage ... explicit intents lets you bypass the whole thing Josh_Soref: could change explicit intent mechanism to open connection, load page, but not share data initially jhawkins: this is a possibility ... i'd like to point to how Android Intents worked Explicit intents designate the target component by its name (the component name field, mentioned earlier, has a value set). Since component names would generally not be known to developers of other applications, explicit intents are typically used for application-internal messages — such as an activity starting a subordinate service or launching a sister activity. not security by obscurity though Josh_Soref: it sounds like this argues for same-origin jhawkins: if we have a solution for privacy that are compelling ... the notion of a web-intents Agent ... we've heard it from other people Jungkee: i have a UC for Gallery API ... we can avoid interaction with explicit intents ... they can just go directly to the service ... like local storage ... an service provider provides explicit service ... and the user doesn't have to pick something fjh: why wouldn't you want User interaction? ... i don't understand why you'd want that Jungkee: with explicit, you don't show a picker fjh: but why wouldn't you want to show the picker? Jungkee: because the user has to choose the picker before picking the media ... we can give a better UX fjh: it seems like you're worried about repeated interactions ... you're talking about wanting to remember previous options ... i thought there already was a way to do that without explicit intents jhawkins: that's correct Jungkee: if a service provider provides explicit urls richt: we've also looked at this issue ... it isn't just an issue for web intents ... one solution is accountability through transparency ... we give users/developers the ability to look through data through logs ... that's an informal kind of contract ... it helps ... you can't just push through crazy stuff w/o accountability ... if you do stuff with dev tools ... i think that'll be a factor in trying to solve privacy issues jhawkins: this came up about 2 weeks ago ... there's an extension in the Chrome Web Store ... it's the Web Intents Debugger ... we want to take that concept and move it into the Web Inspector ... so yeah, we're on the same page with that richt: there is a way of highlighting and putting pressure on companies to not do stupid things ... if you need to keep your reputation in tact ... it's a way to do this fjh: not sure how to do that jhawkins: best practices ... does the speed bump on privacy data address your privacy concerns? fjh: not sure i remember the speed bump jhawkins: it shows the destination and gives an explanation fjh: i think so Paul_Kinlan: on explicit intents ... we have one relatively big news agency partner ... they want to use explicit intents ... they have twitter, facebook, and other ... they'd like to use the same API for talking to all three sets ... but they'd like to make the actions clear ... but these partners want to have the ability to give the user a seemless experience ... but also give the intents picker ... there are people who are actively looking to use web intents throughout their whole experience fjh: would that work with the speedbump idea? Paul_Kinlan: i think it's kind of nice ... i don't think it works right now Josh_Soref, you wanted to say this sounds like a need for persisted connections to intents Paul_Kinlan: i think we need delayed delivery Josh_Soref: agree with frederick, if client makes request to use intent, user agent can persist future requests without repeated picker ... this could apply to speed bump case as well ... also gallery ... thus do not need explicit intent for the gallery use case richt: the way android intents work, if i set a default intent, it will always use that ... if i then open another provider for that intent ... then the next time i try to trigger that intent ... i'll get the picker fjh: that makes sense dsr, you wanted to note that direct binding of app to a component can be done without web intents, so using an explicit intent is presumably to allow user to pick an alternative Josh_Soref: it's dangerous with spammers, but mostly makes sense dsr: what's the benefit of using web intents rather than directly ... how do you explain the benefits of using explicit intents ... and the benefit is letting users change their mind ... the benefits are same-origin ... being able to change their mind is still useful ... and for separate origin, there's a different benefit ... we should clarify the benefit jhawkins: today on the web, it sucks, there's one-one ... intents solves by providing one-to-n ... but we can give them this api which lets them still use one-one ... to emphasize what Paul_Kinlan was saying about a News sight ... feedback from someone AddThis ... is that users won't click on Share buttons unless they see a familiar icon ... they'll even click the share button that isn't facebook-twitter if they see facebook-twitter nearby ... doing this makes the migration path easier ... it removes the burden of using multiple apis ... 2. moving to the semantic web ... with schema.org we have nouns ... with intents, we have verbs ... if you can call the web a search engine, say you're bing ... you can understand which pages are nouns and which are verbs ... you could have the engine put these things together ... bing could put the player together in the front page ... that requires explicit intents fjh, you wanted to ask whether users understand components of app and can change minds fjh: it seems like plugging in a random component isn't something the user would be able to fit in well ... it seems likelihood of it working is low ... it makes sense ... but nothing prevents abuse jhawkins: is it easier? ... you'd have to find something that works somewhere on the web ... maybe we shouldn't gloss over the problem ... using intents to structure your app into components ... maybe it is compelling, maybe it isn't ... it seems to be for android ... maybe we make it special for same-origin-explicit to skip the speed bump ... i'm a little concerned about it fjh: we got the speed bump, and same-origin Josh_Soref: should we action jhawkins ... have mail web client which has address book with explclit intent to use that address book ... but I want to use anther book, so first see nothing much, then want to get to other book ... so even with same origin want to go to different address book ... next time get my preferred, not same origin Josh_Soref, you wanted to say that the web intent inspector matches a requirement i listed a while ago dsr: the benefit of same-origin is avoid the speed bump Josh_Soref: but allow for a U-turn a/anther/another/ u-turn is going back from explicit choice to pick after all Josh_Soref: pleased that people are realizing my previous ideas were good Paul_Kinlan: for explicit intents ... web intents are typically gated on user actions ... providing a modifier like a shift key to bring up the picker ... so that the user can ask in advance to get the picker fjh: so if i shift click on a twitter button, i get the picker? Paul_Kinlan: a u-turn might be a bit awkward ... it might be written in a way to encourage the UA to provide a way to map back to choosing richt: it's analogous to Open/Open-With Paul_Kinlan: it could be a browser-user-preference ... where they say never allow explicit intent fjh: that's something we could record in how the spec works Josh_Soref: it's basically UA Implementer guidelines (fjh: e.g. a right click for the context menu with a entry for the picker) fjh: the concern is that the more complexity you add, the more testing jhawkins: i'm concerned that we should try to solve it some other way ... i'd like to solve shift click fjh: because the client didn't provide the picker jhawkins: you don't know that there will be an intent Josh_Soref: i think U-turn and remembering the choice is the way jhawkins: i'd like to keep shift-click out ... i think we've solved it otherwise ... but a UA can still do something like it if it likes richt: have you looked at ... we could use the context menu, did you look at it ... having open with with a pop out menu list jhawkins: we haven't thought about exactly that ... we've thought about those lines ... one way is to make the browser involved ... like right clicking an image ... share/edit/upload ... and start adding these integration points throughout the browser ... and also services, picking files ... exposing services where you have a button that will call start activity ... being able to right click and select something ... unless you have