Chat History with Harry Halpin | Have some time for some vocabulary hacking before the SWXG telecon. (#harryhalpin/$riannella;243ad62cdd99dfa7)

Created on 2009-08-26 23:02:56.

Harry Halpin: 21:59:50: Hey Renato!
Harry Halpin: 22:00:17: Have some time for some vocabulary hacking before the SWXG telecon.
Renato Iannella: 22:00:42: hi
Harry Halpin: 22:00:59: I am trying to dig through my notes to find the URI of the teleco minutes from our last vCard list.
Harry Halpin: 22:01:14: VCard meeting - with a todo list for me at the end.
Renato Iannella: 22:04:09: this one
Renato Iannella: 22:04:10: http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#item06
Renato Iannella: 22:04:12: ?
Harry Halpin: 22:05:13: OK, trying to reember what I have to do.
Harry Halpin: 22:05:37: I believe I have to HTTP 303 redirect Norm's URI on HTML conneg to your site.
Harry Halpin: 22:05:46: your URI.
Harry Halpin: 22:06:14: And then you have to move your namespace to Norm's?
Harry Halpin: 22:06:17: Right?
Harry Halpin: 22:06:29: So, there's only *one* namespace URI and *one* document.
Renato Iannella: 22:06:49: here are the action points from Crete:
Renato Iannella: 22:06:50: Action items:
Harry: Set up .htacess for HTML redirect from 2006->2001 URI
Harry: Set up .htacess for RDF/XML redirect from 2001->2006 URI
(actually: 2009 spec URI ;-))
Renato: Fetch examples from Peter Mika
Harry: Put his work on mappings / transformations between various
contact formats on the Web and link to it from the final HTML resource
of the final 2009 spec.
Norman: Update GRDDL so that is will be compatible with the final 2009 spec.
Harry: Remove hyphens in element names --> consistent names (CamelCase?)
Harry: Think about whether a service for resolution of problems from the
likely use of lexical variants of element names is feasible.
Renato: Contact Giovanni regarding hCard/vCard import module: Ask for
code and suggest update of the code according to the 2009 spec.
Harry: Contact Richard regarding vCard (text) conversion module: Ask for
code and suggest update of the code according to the 2009 spec.
Martin: Do preliminary check and ask Axel and/or Bijan whether they can
review DL compliance of the final spec.
Harry: Ping Identity 2009 for slot / workshop / meeting
Harry Halpin: 22:07:26: OK, I am talking about .htaccess now.
Renato Iannella: 22:07:34: yup
Harry Halpin: 22:07:57: While I muck with that, do you want to try merging the two documents and correcting casing?
Renato Iannella: 22:09:35: That has been done here: http://spin.nicta.org.au/vcardrdf/vcard-rdf-2009.html
Harry Halpin: 22:09:41: Ah, excellent.
Renato Iannella: 22:10:20: The main questions are here:
Renato Iannella: 22:10:21: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Jun/0146.html
Harry Halpin: 22:11:07: 1 - do we need the "v" namespace prefixes (in all the formal Ontology
Reference) for all the properties and classes? (since you can use any
prefix you like....)
Harry Halpin: 22:11:14: I think the answer is technically no.
Harry Halpin: 22:11:23: like you said, but we should be consistent.
Renato Iannella: 22:11:44: so,we should remove the v:
Harry Halpin: 22:12:21: From appendix A?
Renato Iannella: 22:12:25: yes
Harry Halpin: 22:12:37: Yes, but
Harry Halpin: 22:12:42: could you double-check the examples?
Harry Halpin: 22:12:50: <v:VCard>
<v:fn> Corky Crystal </v:fn>
Harry Halpin: 22:12:51: uses v:
Harry Halpin: 22:13:00: <vCard:EMAIL>          <rdf:alt>
            <rdf:li> corky@qqqfoo.com </rdf:li>
            <rdf:li> info@qqqfoo.com </rdf:li>
            <rdf:li> corky2000cool@hotmail.com </rdf:li>
         </rdf:alt>
     </vCard:EMAIL>
Harry Halpin: 22:13:03: uses vCard
Harry Halpin: 22:13:20: and we still gotta get all the capitalization right.
Renato Iannella: 22:13:21: yes - the examples need a namespace (v will do)
Harry Halpin: 22:13:33: as long as it's the same, and yes, v will do.
Harry Halpin: 22:13:35: It's short at least :)
Harry Halpin: 22:13:43: OK, let me go through rest of questions...
Renato Iannella: 22:13:44: but the ontology in Appendix A should not.....
Harry Halpin: 22:13:50: your right
Harry Halpin: 22:13:56: we should delete v: from the appendix.
Renato Iannella: 22:14:07: ok
Harry Halpin: 22:14:10: OK,
Harry Halpin: 22:14:13: Re 2.
Harry Halpin: 22:14:18: I am not sure about prodid.
Harry Halpin: 22:14:22: I think the reason that was dropped
Harry Halpin: 22:14:28: was because Norm and I were mapping hCard.
Harry Halpin: 22:14:32: Which drops it.
Harry Halpin: 22:14:37: but yes, we can keep it.
Renato Iannella: 22:14:48: so add it back in
Harry Halpin: 22:14:51: (I'm not sure precisely what it means per se, but if people use it, we should keep it)
Harry Halpin: 22:14:55: Yep, maybe add it to appendix.
Renato Iannella: 22:15:01: ok
Harry Halpin: 22:15:10: hmm...
Harry Halpin: 22:15:19: let me check lat and long really quickly against the hCard spec.
Renato Iannella: 22:15:29: ok...
Harry Halpin: 22:16:43: <div class="geo">GEO:
<span class="latitude">37.386013</span>,
<span class="longitude">-122.082932</span>
</div>
Harry Halpin: 22:16:48: that's how hCard does it.
Harry Halpin: 22:16:57: (Trying to remember how vCard does it)
Renato Iannella: 22:17:14: vCard is just 2 numbers
Renato Iannella: 22:17:32: 37.386013, -122.082932
Harry Halpin: 22:18:41: Hmmmm...
Harry Halpin: 22:19:09: maybe we should just import rdf's geo WGS84 port.
Renato Iannella: 22:20:04: that will be confusing to the current users?
Harry Halpin: 22:20:16: <geo:lat>26.58</geo:lat>
<geo:long>-97.83</geo:long>
Harry Halpin: 22:20:21: http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/
Harry Halpin: 22:20:28: Are you suggestion that we instead do
Harry Halpin: 22:20:50: <v:geo>26.58,-97.83 <v:geo>
Harry Halpin: 22:20:54: hmmm...
Renato Iannella: 22:21:02: that is closer to vCard.....
Harry Halpin: 22:21:19: time to check sindice!
Harry Halpin: 22:21:38: (were there no other opinions on the list?)
Renato Iannella: 22:22:00: well.....Yahoo does it the long lat way
Renato Iannella: 22:22:10: http://developer.yahoo.com/searchmonkey/smguide/vcard-details.html
Harry Halpin: 22:22:13: Which way? <v:geo>26.58,-97.83 <v:geo>
Renato Iannella: 22:22:24: no the other
Harry Halpin: 22:22:56: hmmm...
Harry Halpin: 22:23:02: I am noticing Yahoo also uses hyphens.
Renato Iannella: 22:23:10: yes! nice!
Harry Halpin: 22:23:29: but we moved to camelcase, did we not?
Harry Halpin: 22:23:33: I am happy to use hyphens as well.
Harry Halpin: 22:23:39: And yes, we should probably do it yahoo's way.
Renato Iannella: 22:23:43: yes..camelCase
Harry Halpin: 22:23:43: as regards geo.
Harry Halpin: 22:24:25: Do you have a real preference for camelCase?
Harry Halpin: 22:24:37: Because I'm thinking if Yahoo uses hyphens, we should use hyphens.
Harry Halpin: 22:24:53: (although Yahoo Search just got bought out by Microsoft, so this may not matter...)
Harry Halpin: 22:25:06: You can make the call there, but I am fine either way.
Harry Halpin: 22:25:19: With a slight preference to keeping hyphens.
Harry Halpin: 22:25:27: Just because that's what Yahoo! said.
Renato Iannella: 22:25:27: ok....we should ask the group to see which way.....
Harry Halpin: 22:25:30: (sigh)
Harry Halpin: 22:26:03: (Why were we against hyphens? Can't remember...)
Renato Iannella: 22:26:15: hmmmmmm not sure
Renato Iannella: 22:26:23: we did go this way in Crete
Harry Halpin: 22:26:42: Yes, but I can't remember the reasoning.
Harry Halpin: 22:26:58: Yes, and then the great problem
Harry Halpin: 22:27:05: with the mobileTel mobileEmail all that sort of thing.
Harry Halpin: 22:27:38: Questions 4-7 are actually hard.
Renato Iannella: 22:27:43: yes......do we stick closer to vCard "cell".....which is a US-oriented word
Renato Iannella: 22:27:51: Yes - they are !!
Harry Halpin: 22:27:52: Question 8 is yes, we support rdf:List for anything that might want to be ordered!
Renato Iannella: 22:27:53: hard
Renato Iannella: 22:28:01: ok 8 is ok
Renato Iannella: 22:28:51: and then the killer question of do we support "types" for telephone numbers (etc)
Renato Iannella: 22:28:56: eg here
Renato Iannella: 22:28:57: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Jun/0147.html
Harry Halpin: 22:29:09: What did you think of Toby's solution
Harry Halpin: 22:29:12: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Jun/0147.html
Harry Halpin: 22:29:15: Ah,
Harry Halpin: 22:29:20: I see we think alike.
Harry Halpin: 22:29:21: Hmmm...
Renato Iannella: 22:29:39: That's what I did in the original vCard NOTE
Harry Halpin: 22:29:57: I think Norm didn't do that
Renato Iannella: 22:30:06: See section 3.3
Harry Halpin: 22:30:10: Due to his not wanting to make blank nodes.
Renato Iannella: 22:30:16: of http://spin.nicta.org.au/vcardrdf/vcard-rdf-2009.html
Harry Halpin: 22:30:19: And...let me check hCard spec.
Renato Iannella: 22:30:54: no, norm defined every type of telephone as a new property
Harry Halpin: 22:31:05: Yes, I realize that's what norm did.
Harry Halpin: 22:31:13: He did that to avoid blank nodes.
Harry Halpin: 22:31:19: But, maybe blank nodes are the right design pattern here.
Renato Iannella: 22:31:36: I don't have a problem with them!
Renato Iannella: 22:31:52: but makes a big change to the ontology
Harry Halpin: 22:31:53: Ah, yes.
Renato Iannella: 22:32:02: (and yahoo's)
Harry Halpin: 22:32:24: And the other reason was that it makes it hard to SPARQL.
Harry Halpin: 22:32:26: Sigh, it's just a trade-off.
Harry Halpin: 22:32:39: I think the blank nodes are probably the right design pattern.
Renato Iannella: 22:33:17: So we just have one Telephone property
Renato Iannella: 22:33:51: and the best way to express the "work" "home" type?
Harry Halpin: 22:34:46: I'm guessing Toby's method.
Harry Halpin: 22:34:51: i.e.
Harry Halpin: 22:35:09: <v:telephone>
Renato Iannella: 22:35:16: so what is:
Renato Iannella: 22:35:16: vx:usage "work" , "mobile"
Harry Halpin: 22:35:22: <rdf:value>@@</rdf:value>
Harry Halpin: 22:35:33: yes.
Harry Halpin: 22:35:37: I am not so sure about this vx:usage
Harry Halpin: 22:35:48: but I guess that's as fine a name as any.
Harry Halpin: 22:35:51: I thought they called it
Harry Halpin: 22:35:51: in vCard
Harry Halpin: 22:36:00: just type
Harry Halpin: 22:36:04: like tel(type,value)
Renato Iannella: 22:36:08: I used <rdf:type> like
Renato Iannella: 22:36:09: <rdf:type rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/2001/vcard-rdf/3.0#work"/>
Harry Halpin: 22:36:45: that seems fine with me.
Harry Halpin: 22:36:51: Note that this design pattern
Harry Halpin: 22:36:55: also works with
Harry Halpin: 22:37:00: org (organization-name, organization-unit)
Harry Halpin: 22:37:13: adr (post-office-box, extended-address, street-address, locality, region, postal-code, country-name, type, value)
Harry Halpin: 22:37:21: email (type, value)
Renato Iannella: 22:37:52: yes.....
Renato Iannella: 22:38:05: but I would not use it for org
Harry Halpin: 22:38:15: that's fine.
Harry Halpin: 22:38:19: but definitely with adr.
Harry Halpin: 22:38:27: however...
Harry Halpin: 22:38:31: we really need to think about
Harry Halpin: 22:39:13: is it possible to map Norm's use of say, homeAdr, to the blank node design pattern?
Renato Iannella: 22:39:37: hmmm
Harry Halpin: 22:40:18: Maybe we can add a section, saying:
Harry Halpin: 22:40:25: that these are "shortcuts"
Harry Halpin: 22:40:35: that while they are not best practices
Harry Halpin: 22:40:38: are acceptable.
Renato Iannella: 22:40:50: so - you can do it both ways?
Harry Halpin: 22:40:56: I am not sure.
Harry Halpin: 22:41:05: I general, it's better to specify one way I think.
Renato Iannella: 22:41:13: yes...always better!
Harry Halpin: 22:41:18: But if people are aleady using mobileTel.
Harry Halpin: 22:41:21: We at least need to acknowledge that.
Harry Halpin: 22:42:43: hmmm...let me see if I can check empirically.
Renato Iannella: 22:43:00: That probably why there is an "unlabeledAdr" property
Harry Halpin: 22:43:09: yes, it's a bad design pattern.
Harry Halpin: 22:43:12: However, it is easy for users.
Harry Halpin: 22:43:17: and SPARQL
Harry Halpin: 22:43:22: which is why Norm chose it.
Harry Halpin: 22:43:53: I am trying to see if I can get an empirical guess
Renato Iannella: 22:43:57: It is almost like "flatening" out vCard to the core list of properties
Harry Halpin: 22:44:09: that is exactly what both hCard and Norm did.
Harry Halpin: 22:44:27: I think
Harry Halpin: 22:44:28: the way forward is to say
Harry Halpin: 22:44:41: "look, this stuff like mobileTel exists out there"
Harry Halpin: 22:44:57: "but the preferred way of doing it is with blank nodes"
Harry Halpin: 22:45:06: We could ask swig really quickly.
Harry Halpin: 22:45:47: Ack
Harry Halpin: 22:45:47: http://www.gnowsis.org/ont/vcard#telCell
Renato Iannella: 22:45:50: So....we add like Appendix B - with all the properties that really should be blank nodes
Harry Halpin: 22:45:52: does it the same way as Norm does.
Harry Halpin: 22:46:02: Yes, that makes sense.
Renato Iannella: 22:46:13: and given them advice on how to make them "correct"
Harry Halpin: 22:46:16: Say "ShortCut Properties"
Harry Halpin: 22:46:19: Yep.
Harry Halpin: 22:46:22: I think that makes sense.
Harry Halpin: 22:46:28: But people will run into them on the Web
Renato Iannella: 22:46:29: yes....short cut properties
Harry Halpin: 22:46:34: and we want to not pretend like they don't exist.
Harry Halpin: 22:46:38: that *would* cause confusion.
Renato Iannella: 22:46:44: yes...agress
Harry Halpin: 22:46:46: the entire point of a spec is to dismiss confusion :)
Renato Iannella: 22:47:01: yup!
Renato Iannella: 22:47:19: that would not answer Ques 5-7 now
Renato Iannella: 22:48:15: not/now/
Renato Iannella: 22:48:26: ;-)
Harry Halpin: 22:48:29: cool!
Harry Halpin: 22:48:33: OK, so you feel comfortable
Harry Halpin: 22:48:39: the only real question we have left is camel-caes
Renato Iannella: 22:48:43: yes....this is better ow
Renato Iannella: 22:48:45: now
Harry Halpin: 22:48:57: and I'd say - actually, we should keep camel-case.
Renato Iannella: 22:48:58: I can finisg the edit/merge
Renato Iannella: 22:49:05: yes - I agree
Harry Halpin: 22:49:06: Right now we have two versions
Harry Halpin: 22:49:19: Or...
Harry Halpin: 22:49:22: now I am changing my mind
Harry Halpin: 22:49:24: sorry :)
Harry Halpin: 22:49:28: Maybe we should keep hyphens.
Harry Halpin: 22:49:46: Right now we already have a problem due to having a hyphen version and a uppercase version.
Renato Iannella: 22:49:54: I thought that Camel was the SW preferred way?
Harry Halpin: 22:49:55: Would not producing a third version make simply more problems?
Harry Halpin: 22:50:33: Well, I think it usually is.
Harry Halpin: 22:50:42: but we have this backwards compatibility issue to deal with.
Renato Iannella: 22:50:48: ok...keep hyphens.....
Harry Halpin: 22:50:49: same re Norm's "shortcusts"
Harry Halpin: 22:50:55: Actually, what is also needed!
Harry Halpin: 22:51:03: Is a note re the uppercase version.
Harry Halpin: 22:51:50: So if people see all uppercase versions then they will say, well, we've switched to hyphens.
Renato Iannella: 22:52:30: ok....we should document in the new note
Renato Iannella: 22:53:41: vCard 4.0 is still all in UPPERCASE
Harry Halpin: 22:53:51: yes, I know
Renato Iannella: 22:55:19: ok....I think we have done as much as we can now....
Renato Iannella: 22:55:38: we shoud email this transcript to the group
Harry Halpin: 22:55:48: yep
Renato Iannella: 22:55:50: and get any immediate feedback
Renato Iannella: 22:56:06: I can do that tomorrow
Renato Iannella: 22:57:13: Ok....thanks harry!
Renato Iannella: 22:57:15: talk soon
Harry Halpin: 22:57:23: not done quite yet
Harry Halpin: 22:57:32: I have to do that 303 content negotiaton madness
Harry Halpin: 22:57:37: but will do that after SWXG
Harry Halpin: 22:57:40: it's always a mess :)
Renato Iannella: 22:57:47: ok.....no problems!
Harry Halpin: 22:57:49: lastly, are you going to make SWXG call?
Renato Iannella: 22:58:11: I will try....but my boy is crying and needs a feed!
Harry Halpin: 22:58:15: In particular, can you make TPAC 2009?
Harry Halpin: 22:58:29: We are trying to get a headcount and I figured you might be there.
Renato Iannella: 22:58:42: No, can't make TPAC....I am all travelled out for the rest of the year
Harry Halpin: 22:58:45: (Don't worry if you can't, I am struggling with my Uni. for travel funds for it)
Harry Halpin: 22:58:47: OK.
Harry Halpin: 22:58:49: Just checking.
Harry Halpin: 22:58:52: Darn economic crisis :)
Renato Iannella: 22:59:10: For me...it is a Time crisis!
Renato Iannella: 22:59:59: ok.....chat soon...
Harry Halpin: 23:01:16: yes, we are thinking of moving times.
Harry Halpin: 23:01:26: I think it would make it more reasonable for you, in the morning.
Harry Halpin: 23:01:34: there was some suggestions from Kaliya.
Renato Iannella: 23:01:35: yes.....that would be better!
Harry Halpin: 23:01:36: Will post to list.
Renato Iannella: 23:01:39: ok
Renato Iannella: 23:02:28: gotta go...bye