The weekly EOWG teleconference convened to discuss ongoing work and to make final logistical and agenda decisions for the face to face meeting next week. As a result of current drafts and discussion of current work the following resolutions were passed:
There was general agreement that the Accessibility, Usability, and Inclusion piece is moving in the right direction and this will be an option of work at the F2F next week. Details about location and updates to the plans for user feedback sessions, the overall agenda for the F2F, and the web site redesign brainstorm are on the wiki and EO participants are encouraged to participate. Thanks for your good work, look forward to being together in Austin next week.
<Brent> Document Link: http://w3c.github.io/wai-planning-and-implementation/improving
Brent: Trying to wrap this up, have gotten good comments, thanks to all who contributed
<shadi> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/improving/results
<shadi> https://github.com/w3c/wai-planning-and-implementation/issues/63
Shadi: Yes, thanks to all who completed the survey - the one big problem was the title, we seem to have converged on "Short Term Website Accessibility Improvements"
<shadi> Short Term Web Accessibility Improvements
<shadi> http://w3c.github.io/wai-planning-and-implementation/improving
<yatil> I like it!
Shadi: I have changed the document so you can see that title in place.
<Howard> works for me
<shawn> works for me
Shadi: it would be great if we could decide on one today. Let's check to see if there are any objections or reservations about this title?
Sharron: whoops, typo in first Paragraph "folliwng"
RESOLUTION: New title will be "Short Term Website Accessibility Improvements"
<Brent> +1
<shawn> good job EOWG for commenting on GitHub to make time on the call more efficient!
<shadi> https://github.com/w3c/wai-planning-and-implementation/issues/70
<yatil> Eric: I have just corrected the "folliwng" to "following" in the Short Term Website Accessibility Improvements document, Sharron.
Shadi: next issue was the fact that the document says, early on, that you should understand the basics and then get many links that send you off to other place right away. Shawn and others commented on the this and so I have rerganziaed, move some links to the end, made an earlier focus to how to fix. Link to Quick Start was also moved later in the document.
... I am happy to move most of them further down but I left a couple of them because some basic references and vocabulary will be importatn for those who are really new to this subject.
<Howard> I think it helps
<shawn> +1 for current iteration where we still have the first 2 sections at the beginning with just the 3 links
<Susan> I'm ok with it. much shorter
<yatil> Not opposed.
Brent: This was a mild to medium objection from my perspective. Because the title promises to get in and fix things quickly, the links take people into a lot of other stuff and opens up the whole navigation. But then I considered that switching around the order is helpful - the two links that remain give good background. I would not want to overwhlem people with 'hey you must know all this to fix'
things' but I understand the need to have some basic knowledge. I think that this is a good reorg.
Eric: The average dev would be overwhelmed by the suggestion that you need to understand all this before you start. Especially the Principles of Accessibility seems too much info for short term fixes. But I am OK with how it has been reorganized.
Shadi: It is more about the process rather than the individual repairs, though and it seems foundational understanding is needed.
Brent: are there any other calls or concerns about the links to basic informaiton.
<yatil> Let's publish as is!
Sharron: I am OK with how it is now.
Howard: I see Eric's point but I think this latest iteration really has helped a lot.
Caleb: I agree with Eric - the text should be modernized and quickly parsable. But that is a long term issue and I am OK with this for now.
<shawn> the two sections in question right now: Understand the Basics & Explore the Issues
Caleb: It is OK but this is a design issue, it is the layout and design, needing more negative space. All of the pages are overwhleming due to the design. Once you start reading, it is not too bad. I don't mind going to other links to read things, it is more of the packaging I think.
<James> +1 to it takes work to get past the "packaging" and be motivated to read. Once you read it's better.
<shadi> +1 - that's why we need the redesign project :)
Brent: The links in the Basics sestion is to push you into learning about the principles
<shawn> +1 for the main audience for this document is not developers
<Susan> agree with Caleb's pov
Caleb: Honestly, developers won't come here - they will go somewhere like Stack Overflow. I don't see this page for developers, more for those trying to intro accessibility into product life cycle. Devs won't know there is an accessibility bug and to find it, will be looking for a solution to a problem that has already been defined
Howard: Caleb has a point and I agree it is longer term. My suggestion is to move Accessibility Principles to the end or remove it. Leaving just one link in the Basics section would be good.
Shadi: Or move the entire section to the bottom?
<shawn> ACTION: Shawn add Accessibility Principles to https://www.w3.org//standards/webdesign/accessibility (and Easy Checks & Getting Started Tips & any other new relevant stuff) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/05/06-eo-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-349 - Add accessibility principles to https://www.w3.org//standards/webdesign/accessibility (and easy checks & getting started tips & any other new relevant stuff) [on Shawn Henry - due 2016-05-13].
Howard: Yes I guess you could. If we are saying this is for developers looking for quick ansers.
Shadi: I agree with Caleb that this document is for the process person. That is our primary target audience. What do they need?
Howard: Get rid of Principles and link only to W3C basic Accessibility would be my vote. Not super strong however.
Shawn:We need to leave principles at least in implementing and to add it to the W3C intro.
<Susan> I prefer to move it to the bottom
Shadi: How do others feel about pushing those resources further down in the order?
Shawn: if we take it out of the Basics section, I think they may need the information before the very end. Should also link to the Principles from the W3C Accessiibility Intro page. I have taken an action to do that.
Shadi: I am hearing to keep Understanding the Basics and the first link. Remove link to Accessibility Principles and place it either in Implementation section or to the very end.
Shawn: I will go with the group decision but my feeling is that the principles is an awesome resource that lays out what you need. Seems like we should tell them about it up front and they can decide whether they need it and can use it right now or not. But should be aware of it.
Brent: On consideration of the primary audience - process person rather than developers - I think hving the background info closer to the top is a good one. OK as it is.
Sharron: +1 to brent
Susan: I don't feel super strongly, I am OK that it is shorter, it would be good to move the links further down. Even the intended audience will only stay if we give them something they can use now.
... If they need something short term, they want to know what to do now?
Sharron: But if these are the process people they likely *do* need some basic principles in order to make good decisons about priotizing the fixes, etc. In fact, the Principles might be what this group really needs most.
<Susan> Notes that links to overviews, general info, etc are always there - still on the left side in the nav
Shadi: Primary audience is the PM or someone leading a project or managing a site who is directed to consider accessibility at the last minute. Looking for resources, how to start, wrap their head around what to do.
<shawn> -1 to move accessibility principles - I won't object, but I disagree
Sharron: My hope is that the redesign will help with that feeling of overwhelm.
<Brent> +1 to the redesign will help also
<Susan> +1 to brent's +1. this is why I don't feel strongly
Shadi: don't hear people making strong arguements, although there are good reasons for both. Much of this will be addressed by the redesign
Sharron:So if we ignore the framework - the nav etc and the rest of what will be differently presented, are we giving our primary audience the info they need? ... Principles are important to some of this audience...
Eric: So we have a clear decision that the group does not feel strongly one way or another, so we can leave to editor's discretion.
<Susan> yay yatil! get things moving!
Shadi: I hear there is a bit of movement, Sharron's point that moving the links further down the page will not address the heaviness so I am leaning to leaving it as is.
... any objections to that?
<Brent> +1 to leaving as is for now
<shawn> +1 to leaving as is for now
<yatil> +1 to leaving as is for now
<dboudreau> I'm happy with moving forward with publishing, one way or another.
RESOLUTION: Accept the current version of Basics and Understanding section of the the Improving doc as presented at the meeting today
<yatil> Is there a Github issue or Pull Request for the Changes?
<Susan> +1 to getting it out with editor's discretion
<Caleb> +1
<yatil> +1
<shawn> +1
Shawn: The tersification and direct language will improve it , I think all will be happy with it.
Shadi: OK thanks we will take this into consideration and get the document out.
<shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Showcase_Examples_with_Videos/Second_Cut
Shadi: We are really excited about where we are with this
... based on your comments, the production company is working on addressing your concerns. They will be complete on time and can see the last iteration at the F2F and ready for release on May 17. This is the final cut, no more budget, we can chose not to publish any of them but no more re-edits of them.
... We want to consider the page itself. The organiaation and presentation of the text that supports the video
<shadi> http://w3c.github.io/wai-showcase-examples/Overview.html
<shadi> https://github.com/w3c/wai-showcase-examples/issues/135
Shadi: people wanted more information about the specific topic raised in the video. Seemed to boil down to a few questions - what is it? who benefits? what should I do?
<yatil> +1 like as is
<Adina> I like the 4 collapsible links under each
<Caleb> +1 love this
<Howard> +1 like it as is
<Brent> +1 to open paragraph and 4 ex/col
<Adina> I also like the expand all sections at the top
Sharron: yep, seems good
<Susan> I like collapsable links as on this version. (4)
<Adina> and I LOVE the share!!
<Adina> definitely need a back to top
Shadi: Should there be a back to top button?
Brent: There is no real content at the top and this is not a linear resource.
Shadi: Used to be ToC and expand collapse mechanism but pushed videos pretty far down.
Sharron: -1 to back to top for anti-clutter
Adina: Defintely need a back to top especially for use on mobile
<Kazuhito> -1 to back to top, cause there are collapse mechanisms
Adina: I don't mind the nav at the top, best would be open drawer/hamburger. Nav should be front and center because that is what people expect.
<dboudreau> I agree with Adina
<Kazuhito> or, split into pages, not implementing all movies on one single page, if there's no strong motivation to do that
<yatil> +1 to add back to top, I don't think it will add too much clutter.
Brent: Where would the back to top link be?
Shadi: Would steal from how it is impleemnted on other WAI docs
Shawn: Good to have list of videos at the top, two columns maybe but strongly support that list at the top.
Denis: Why are we not just using this page to have thumbnails or short descriptions here rather than all on one page?
... ech video on its own page
Shadi: So should we make the landing page a launch to individual videos each on its own page?
<Caleb> Agree with each video on own page but linked to from existing page
<Susan> agree with Adina. I was going to make a similar comment.
<Kazuhito> agree with Caleb
Adina: UX principles expect that fewer clicks is the best. I advocate for keeping them on one page as a tackler to show that there is more than one - especially if I am linked directly. I like the UX guideline of lessening the drill down andbeing drawn to the otehrs.
Shadi: We would then have 10 urls that would be shared around.
<Adina> Interestingly, even youtube has all videos on one page
Shadi: People feel strongly about having them on one page and others feel strongly the other way.
<Adina> Interested in knowing why those who want on one page feel that way.
<Adina> *on one page each I mean
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to imagine click effort to look at all of lots of the videos - annoying to go to multiple pages
James: What about making thumbnails that take you to a page where the video begins to play automatically?
<Susan> Big thumbs down to automatic play
Shawn: What if someone wants to watch multiple videos? I get done with the video I started with, find my way back to main, find the next video. Seems like it is adding a whole lot of clutter and steps.
Sharron: There are options - such as "watch next video" - could think of alternative ways to do that.
Shawn: In termsm of being able to share different URLs, there is the share link.
Denis: From our old way of navigating, Shawn is right. But as we look into rebuilding the web site and alternative ways to navigate, we can solve that problem.
Sharron: +1
Shadi: So do we not publish them until we are redesigned?
Denis: Oh no, we should of course publish, I am only encouraging us to think differently. Using these from a teaching standpoint, we want to look at one specific topic, not give students an opportunity to stray from curiousity Don't force people to scroll, have improved SEO, many benefits.
<shawn> interesting use case, Denis
Shadi: A proposal is then to have thumbnails that take you to a separate page, the subpage has only the one video with the subtopics and then a list of other videos so you so not have to go back to main page.
<shawn> [ Shawn notes recent existing model on WAI with of links to related pages in right-hand nav https://www.w3.org/WAI/impl/initiate.html#learn-the-basics & https://www.w3.org/WAI/gettingstarted/tips/designing.html ]
Eric: In my role as professional YouTube watcher. Each has its own page but if you click to the next, it begins to play automatically. Each could have video previews of the others, avoiding the back and forth that Shawn described.
<shawn> [ Shawn OK with videos on spearate page with thoughtful navigation to related videos so don't have to go back to main nav page ]
Eric: I am concerned that people will share only the YouTube list and people may not be confident to share that and if they link only to YouTube will miss valuable supporting materials.
Adina: Suggest a YouTube model could work - you see the thumbnails, chooseing one takes to a video on just one page and also teasers for other related videos.
Denis: reminder that while I appreciate YouTube model but we must think about how to overrule auto play.
<shawn> +1 against autoplay
<yatil> EricE as I said the autoplay would be after a conscious decision **PLAY** NEXT VIDEO
<Adina> -1 on autoplay too. not good a11y practice
RESOLUTION: Separate videos to individual pages
James: What are constrainsts about the buttons on the player?
<shawn> [ Let's send AblePlayer suggestions for UI improvements ]
Shadi: This is the Able player which is the one that has the most accessible performance as a free player. Terry Tompson is promising an updated version soon and is open to our comments and suggestions.
<Kazuhito> like YouTube, we can offer switch to enable autoplay, while autoplay disabled by default.
Denis: What if we could suggest another one? I might have one...Simply Accessible built one last year and it is really accessible. Deque is building one as well for their clients, both are being freely shared I beleive. We could compare.
<Adina> can you share the video player link?
Sharron: current one has really good accessibility and the maker is open to comments for updates to UI. on our time frame, we should priotize accessiiblity over UI elegance and maybe reconsider later with redesign
<shawn> current player highlights text in transcript - nice feature
Adina: I will take a look at the video player that Terry created, we could improve the UI if we can reach the CSS
Adina: shadi will you send me the link?
Eric: The AblePlayer is quite open, what do we want to do?
... what is the thing we want to change? My only concern is the triangle up and down for speed, otherwise I am very happy with this. Doesn't seem like we need to do much and I am happy to address on GitHUb.
<shadi> https://ableplayer.github.io/ableplayer/
Caleb: I can try to take on that resource to customize the player. James and I were talking offline, we can get a designer here to help us and we can take that on as a project.
<yatil> ACTION: Caleb to have a look into prettification of the player UI, with help by James + Designers and on input by EOWG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/05/06-eo-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-350 - Have a look into prettification of the player ui, with help by james + designers and on input by eowg [on Caleb Watson - due 2016-05-13].
Shadi: Put player comments and design issues into GitHUb. Caleb and Eric will be looking at those and updating the player.
<yatil> +1 to go with the current player for the time being
Shadi: meanwhile we are going with the current player for the launch
<dboudreau> +1 to keep going with this player too
Shadi: Now if we can consider the content of the page. We need more information for some of the videos and ideally we want to publish on May 17 in time for GAAD
Brent: The production company is working on the video and our task is to work on the text on each page. We have a survey in the agenda
<Brent> Perspectives survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/perspectives2/
Brent: Survey looks at high priority actions needed before publication.
... and approval for now, and what needs doing but can be postponed until later on.
... is open now and want to have time to address before the F2F so would like it answered by Wednesday May 11 by 9:00 am Central time.
... We will not meet next Friday if we complete our work on this. If we still have unresolved issues, we will meet on Friday only focused on working through the final issues so the Perspectives can be published on May 17
James: created video player feedback https://github.com/w3c/wai-showcase-examples/issues/206
Brent: Any questions about the Perspectives survey, work and follow-up?
<yatil> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/auiclastcall/results
Eric: Had the last call survey, collected everyone's opinions. A few have been marked as ED, such as button placement. We are keeping it as is for now. There are no objections to moving on with the current UI, added some pointers to help find filters more easily and a few other things proposed. Asking for resolution.
RESOLUTION: Accept the UI as surveyed for publication of the Accessible UI Components List with the understanding that there are styling changes ongoing and we are OK to leave to Editor's Discretion.
Brent: Thanks for all the attention and your help to Eric.
Brent: Since the March F2F, we have worked on that process description.
<Brent> Current draft of Resource Development Life Cycle page: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Resource_Development_Life_Cycle
James: As you know, the original idea was to take some of the detail in the stage description and simplify, we diagramed that process and I worked from that. As the comments came in it actually got longer and more complex. So I took another approach
... will probably change the axes, but there are several stages but there is one task and one deliverable to each stage. From our perspective as what EO needs to know and do, this is clear and understandble. We probably don't need to know the names of all the draft stages but since those are important in the W3C process there are links to more info for those who need to/want to know more.
Sharron: Great, thanks!
<yatil> +1 for keeping it simple
Shawn: Love the simplification and there are some previous comments that still need to be addressed and we can do it at the f2f.
<Brent> Inclusion document: http://w3c.github.io/wai-inclusion/
Brent: still in process and will bring to the group again soon. has been tersified - thank you Shawn!
Brent: Agenda is on the wiki
<Brent> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_F2F_May_2016
Brent: Quick overview of our agenda and asking for your input, approval, suggestions for anything left out.
... will have data to review from usability / feedback sessions
Sharron: Usability sessions will be held in Room 267 at JBWS , same building as the classrooms
... face to face will be in Fleck Hall, across campus
<Howard> agenda looks fine to me
Brent: Comments about agenda?
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask about adding to the list of in development for user feedback the Accessibily, Usability, Inclusion doc since it's in development? -- or it's not a
Shawn: Should we add that to the list?
Sharron: yes
Brent: yes
Sharron: What about remote participation?
Shadi: I will try to attend will follow up off line
<Brent> Please look at the link to the WAI site re-design. Add thoughts. https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WAI_site_plans
<Brent> Thank you all. Have a good weekend